Unpopular Opinion: There should be no voting age

[reigns]

I'll keep my opening post short and sweet, I'll no doubt get unnecessarily wordy later. In a nutshell:

Big philosophical reason: A true democracy allows everyone the opportunity to voice their opinion. Women deserve the right and opportunity to speak for themselves. Maori and other indigenous groups deserve the right and opportunity to speak for themselves. Even prisoners should have their right to vote reinstated. Children are the last group of citizens/residents denied the right and opportunity to vote in our democracy.

(Ir)rational argument: Almost all of the arguments we use to deny voting rights to children also apply to adults who do vote. I can genuinely struggle to name one. Bring me your excuses.

Chur <3

[king1]

election bribes will take on a whole new meaning if kids are allowed to vote... Free Mr whippies for everyone

[reigns]

election bribes will take on a whole new meaning if kids are allowed to vote...  Free Mr whippies for everyone

Would cost less than:

• Working for Families Tax Credits (thanks Helen for that bribe)
  
• Free student loans (thanks Helen again)
  
• NZ Superannuation (thans Muldoon for scrapping the previous Kiwisaver-like scheme created by the Labour Govt before you so you commit future generations of New Zealanders to paying taxes for others' retirement)
  
• National's broken Tax Cuts! record
  
• The Provincial Growth Fund (thanks Ardern and Jones)
  
• Kiwibuild (thanks Ardern for the failure of that bribe to even materialise)
  
• ACT always winning Epsom
  

Plus, the money would go back into the economy and children would be happy. Hell, even adults would be happy. Except the lactose intolerant.

My point: Election bribes already happen for adults of all types. All of the "Nice to have" promises Parties make every election are "bribes".

[Magoo]

correct me if im wrong, and i often am
if we have no voting age
then no one will get to vote.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I agree. Everyone should vote if they wish to, but adults should have to.

Civic responsibility.

[Magoo]

I agree. Everyone should vote if they wish to, but adults should have to.

Civic responsibility.

as long as there is a 'none of the above' option im happy to abide.
forcing me to pick the least objectionable option offered is
what got us here.

[Lilith7]

I've a couple of great grandkids who could be bribed with a Spiderman & a Dinosaur as to how they vote - almost 5 & almost 3....

I can see a whole new group of votes being hitched to which lot provides the best loot.

We need to have a voting age, due to human brains being especially stupid until properly developed - & yes, there is certainly an argument to be made that some never do, but most manage it eventually, mostly around the mid 20s.

Its just that I have this vision of hordes of young & stupid teenagers (I know, I used to be one) banding together on social media to vote for someone based on looks, or not vote based on dislike of hairstyle or something equally daft & shallow.

[Zurdo]

I have an aversion about voting for major parties - way back, in a choice between the BIG 2 and a minor party, I voted for the minor party....it was called the Communist Party. Fun that night to see your actual vote come up on the board.

Children will be the same as my childish brain, unless they are formed into the mold of their elders, they will go with some obscure party they think is funny.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I agree. Everyone should vote if they wish to, but adults should have to.

Civic responsibility.

as long as there is a 'none of the above' option im happy to abide.
forcing me to pick the least objectionable option offered is
what got us here.

I go for the nearest to what I believe in... Always room for improvement.

[reigns]

correct me if im wrong, and i often am
if we have no voting age
then no one will get to vote.

I'm already scared enough of hunni pointing out where I cock up words and punctuation.. Don't you start too.

I agree. Everyone should vote if they wish to, but adults should have to.

Civic responsibility.

You never let me down.

I've a couple of great grandkids who could be bribed with a Spiderman & a Dinosaur as to how they vote - almost 5 & almost 3....

I can see a whole new group of votes being hitched to which lot provides the best loot.

We need to have a voting age, due to human brains being especially stupid until properly developed - & yes, there is certainly an argument to be made that some never do, but most manage it eventually, mostly around the mid 20s.

Its just that I have this vision of hordes of young & stupid teenagers (I know, I used to be one) banding together on social media to vote for someone based on looks, or not vote based on dislike of hairstyle or something equally daft & shallow.

Adult voters vote for whoever provides the best loot and always have done. The idea that politicians then start pandering to the youth vote is no more or less an argument about politicians pandering to the Maori vote, or to the old/grey vote, or the Christian vote, etc etc. If the youth want ice cream, it's a cheap vote bought but it also doesn't create a bunch of negative consequences like promising the seabed to Maori would, or promising to double the NZ Super for the old, or promising to ban abortions for fundamentalist Christians.

As for the "developed brain" argument:

• Brains can deteriorate as early as 24, with cognitive speed dropping 15% for every 15 years after
  
• Once you get to your 60s, cognitive decline accelerates
  
• An "under-developed brain" doesn't mean that children cannot demonstrate agency and voice - I wholeheartedly believe that children should be treated as full persons, not adults-in-waiting
  
• And then there's the fact we agree on too that some adults don't seem to be able to engage their brain some or most of the time too, but we don't take the vote off of them (unless they're sentenced to more than three years in prison I think)
  

And I agree that young people do stupid stuff. You did, I definitely did, my kids most assuredly will. But, again, stupid doesn't disqualify adults. You don't get your vote taken off of you for sharing fake news, falling for a phone scam, wearing Crocs, drinking a whole bottle of wine on a work night and forgetting not to drive yourself home, previously voting for the Bill & Ben Party / McGillicuddy Serious Party.

In fact, you can even vote stupidly. You can choose how you vote based on closing your eyes, sticking out your tongue and bringing the voting form to your face and choosing the name that's the most moist. You can vote for the candidate whose name sounds the least creepy. You can even choose to draw a penis on the ballot form and tick that as your political choice.

And as for the daft and shallow:

• "John Key seems like someone I can have a beer with."
  
• "Jacinda's not half bad looking though.."
  
• "Jacinda is a horse face"
  
• "Helen Clark's teeth look like a Christchurch cemetery after an earthquake"
  
• "Simon Bridges is quite nice to look at, isn't he?"
  
• All of the Clarke Gayford slander..
  
• After Shipley, Clark and now Ardern "Women shouldn't run the country"
  
• Not joking, there's a group of Wellington Protest participants in Southland that have created a new sub movement because they genuinely believe that the Wellington Protest failed because it was run by women (Voices For Freedom)
  

Adults get to choose whatever daft, shallow reason they want to to cast their vote. "I only vote National/Labour" is also pretty stupid but it's allowed, because democracy.

I do 100% understand your point of view, Lillith  I do think there'll be problems that arise if we abolish the voting age.. But I just don't believe they are:

1. Problems that didn't already exist; and
   
2. Problems that justify denying the right to have your voice counted in a democracy
   

I have an aversion about voting for major parties - way back, in a choice between the BIG 2 and a minor party, I voted for the minor party....it was called the Communist Party. Fun that night to see your actual vote come up on the board.

Children will be the same as my childish brain, unless they are formed into the mold of their elders, they will go with some obscure party they think is funny.

My daughter is going to be as childish as me. Faced with anti-mandate protesters at an intersection in Whangarei, I wound down the window of the car and boo'd them. 2 year old in the back seat asks "Why are you saying Boo daddy?" and I replied that the people outside the car don't believe in keeping people safe. "Why?" Because they have brains in the butts, I said. She started pointing at them through her window, shouting "BRAIN BUTTS! BRAIN BUTTS!".

She's going to be a great voter when she wants to vote.

[king1]

There has to be some lower limit @reigns, IF we considered it that would have to be around the 8-10 yo mark when kids maybe start thinking critically for themselves...

another concern is that of undue influence parents will have over their younger voters, also how a family of 12 could have disproportionate influence on the vote than a family of 4...

[Lilith7]

"Brain butts" - give your daughter my compliments, I'm stealing that one! The child is clearly brilliant!


https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

"Neuroscience has made these massive advances where we now don't think that things just stop at a certain age, that actually there's evidence of brain development well into early twenties and that actually the time at which things stop is much later than we first thought," says Antrobus.

There are three stages of adolescence - early adolescence from 12-14 years, middle adolescence from 15-17 years and late adolescence from 18 years and over.

Neuroscience has shown that a young person's cognitive development continues into this later stage and that their emotional maturity, self-image and judgement will be affected until the prefrontal cortex of the brain has fully developed."


Another problem with having no voting age is that the unscrupulous, or those with a slightly strange sense of humour, might go so far as to take a baby in to 'vote'...if only to see whether they could get away with it.

[Oldfellah]

I am of the opinion, now that I am a pensioner that anyone under 65 should not be allowed to vote because their brains are so under developed as to what us senior citizens need in our golden years. I will vote for the party that will give us more than a paltry sum every fortnight for the joke they call a pension, we will require to be in the front of the que for medical issues as well as free doctors visits free prescriptions plus free Viagra.

I dont care if you young ones have to work and pay taxes so we can luxuriate in the lifestyle we want to be accustomed to, dont forget that one day you will become old and senile as well and it will be us over 65s that you will thank for being the only ones being allowed to vote responsibly 

[Lilith7]

I am of the opinion, now that I am a pensioner that anyone under 65 should not be allowed to vote because their brains are so under developed as to what us senior citizens need in our golden years. I will vote for the party that will give us more than a paltry sum every fortnight for the joke they call a pension, we will require to be in the front of the que for medical issues as well as free doctors visits free prescriptions plus free Viagra.

I dont care if you young ones have to work and pay taxes so we can luxuriate in the lifestyle we want to be accustomed to, dont forget that one day you will become old and senile as well and it will be us over 65s that you will thank for being the only ones being allowed to vote responsibly 

I have to admit, I do rather like that idea....& I think our age group might be in the majority, or close to it & they do say the majority rules...


Quick! To the beehive! They thought a load of nutters in tents was a a problem - they ain't seen nothing yet!

[Magoo]

my brother writes in his own candidates and gives them a tick.
he has voted for notables such as mahatma ghandi, and jaba the hut,
as well as those more obscure but nonetheless deserving of a vote.
his postie got a nod one year, and hes quite fond of that lass that does the weather on prime, so she might be up for a tick next time around.

[kevlights]

i saw a stack of spoiled voting papers ,invalid ,obscure and down rite rude ,add ons, to last Election Voters papers, some of them were humorous but the under laying premise,that they have wasted their vote seems to have escaped them ....or was that the point ??? voting for treasures nappy's ,may or may not be valid but hey its your time and effort to make an effort to vote ,,why waste it ?? ...If you count all the invalid votes ,they by themself s could of ,should of changed the end result ..or do i miss the point / again ?

[Magoo]

apparently they get a lot of cock drawings too. im not sure if said appendage is turgid or otherwise, it would have been a detail i thought poignant
and its not a waste of a vote, its a vote that says 'this picture of a penis has more nous than the collective prowess of the candidates listed.'
its the only voice some people have against the machine, a hanging chad.

[Lilith7]

apparently they get a lot of cock drawings too. im not sure if said appendage is turgid or otherwise, it would have been a detail i thought poignant
and its not a waste of a vote, its a vote that says 'this picture of a penis has more nous than the collective prowess of the candidates listed.'
its the only voice some people have against the machine, a hanging chad.

 Or maybe its saying that the candidates are a load of dickheads?



I've been thinking about Oldfellah's idea - we could always take that a bit further...perhaps an entire political party solely or even mainly, for the benefit of older people...??

If such a party was to ever gain power, it would certainly change things....

[Olive]

In my opinion it is childish and pointless to deliberately spoil a vote. Nobody sees the vote except the person doing the sorting and it just goes in the bin. It may give the spoiler sneering rights on a message board, not much else.

If you actually want to ignore the democratic process then don't vote at all.

[Magoo]

In my opinion  it is childish and pointless to deliberately spoil a vote.  Nobody sees the vote except the person doing the sorting and it just goes in the bin. It may give the spoiler sneering rights on a message board, not much else.

If you actually want to ignore the democratic process then don't vote at all.

some people sit in tents on parliaments lawn, some people write letters to the editor,
some people attend political rallies, some people throw dildos, some people burn flags.
some people put a bumper sticker on their car.

everybody has the right to express their feelings towards our governance. there are those among us that dont think popularity contests and personality cults are the best way forward in a democracy, so they attack the process without using the voice they consider to have already lost.

 democracy has become making people choose between a cat shit sandwich and a dog shit sandwich, and you cant leave the table until its gone.  dont forget to tick the box of the one that was better.

---

Olive:
If you actually want to ignore the democratic process then don't vote at all.

drawing a flaccid member on your ballot paper says many things.

first you got out of bed, and schlepped down to the voting booth to draw a cock on your ballot paper and submit it.

this is several more steps than your average non voter is prepared to take. this is active abstinence.
prior to this you had to get on the electoral roll. you did this because you wanted to participate in a democracy by having a vote. not so you could draw cocks on your ballot paper and cast a vote for nelson mandela or the milky bar kid.

that came after the first few votes, when you realised that your vote was being used as a permission slip to fuck people over and an endorsement of your tacit approval to do so.

how could anyone with a conscience do that?

if voting got us into this mess, how can we expect it to get us out.?