What will it take?

[girlgeorgina]

and endless loop of the Queen's Address might work, too.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

That'll do! A little respect for the Richest Little Old Lady on the planet!!

[ObeWan]

I went to Picton yesterday.
Got caught up in the middle of a line of about 12 of them in convoy from Blenheim.
I could not get away from them quick enough and first time I have significantly broken the speed limit in years.
There are just as many of them camped out on the Picton reserve - at least a few hundred.
Is this just the next wave of reinforcements?

[yousnoozeyoulose]

Most of them can't get on the ferry, so that's as far as they're going.

Let's see if they stick to the agreement:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK2202/S...pation.htm

[ObeWan]

My DIL who lives in Picton tells me they have been given until 5pm wednesday to relocate to another reserve (but strictly no overnight camping) or they will be removed.
Might be interesting to go and watch!

[Bracken]

I know people are allowed to protest but are they allowed to abuse others, make death threats and blatantly break the law by being there after they have been trespassed.
So what the hell will it take to get rid of this vile scum and tell them to fuck off back to holes they have crawled out of? NZ Police get real do something these bastards are breaking the law and laughing at you , so come on its time to get heavy handed and disperse these poorly informed fuckwits that get all there information from Facebook, if need be call in the Army with hand grenades lol But seriously DO something!

"...are they allowed to abuse others, make death threats..."

"vile scum" ... "call in the Army with hand grenades lol"

I observe a dissonance here.

[dken31]

A lot of you seem to be making the same assessment mistake that our MPs have made, and that is thinking that the protestors are a rag-tag bunch of fringe types who are just there to cause a ruckus and have a bit of fun. If that was the case, then making it a little more unpleasant, by playing annoying music or turning on the sprinklers might have worked.

However, most of the people there (obviously there will be at least a few that fall into the category I described above) are there because they are fundamentally opposed to the vaccine mandates. A lot of them are vaccinated themselves, and there are a whole lot more vaccinated people around the country that support their efforts. Because, the protest is not against vaccines, it is against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system.

They are not there on a whim or for a bit of a laugh and, although being part of a cause they believe in deeply is rewarding, they'd also all rather it be over and to be able to go back to their far more comfortable homes. So, making their unpleasant situation a little bit more unpleasant won't do jack; they're already battling through discomfort, so some annoying music is hardly going to make them give up.

As for them being mentally deficient, bottom-dwelling, mouth-breathing virgins etc., they're well supported (both on the ground in Wellington and around NZ) by plenty of highly successful, intelligent, educated people (with kids, to address the virgin pejorative).

For the record, the protest isn't an action I'd have chosen, I'm not going to be joining them in Wellington and I do feel for the local businesses that have been negatively affected (interesting to read the Backbenchers owner's recent comments though sounding pretty close to supporting the protesters), but now that they've started I'm very much hoping they're successful in bringing forward the end of the vaccine mandate system in NZ. It worked for the Ihumatao protesters, and a win for the Wellington protesters would be far more beneficial to the general public of NZ than Ihumatao was.

[Magoo]

theres not many people out there who do want the vaccine mandates, (just me i think) but stoically bear with them as part of the defence against Covid and its Variants. We like it no more than we liked lockdowns and getting vaccine shots. its been a time of worry and concern for us all.
How is this helping? is it going to speed up the process?
how many of the crowd, learned workaholics that they are, have any experience in medicine?
the minority might be well represented but compared to what? not mainstream thinking, nor societal abidance.
does collective angst override science because its pissy about not being allowed into mcdonalds?
does the minority have the right to impose themselves on the majority?
based on the science they present how can they be taken seriously?

whilst your well written, thought out and passionate missive is commendable i think your support is misplaced.
pitchfork politicking is not the way forward, and for once the government is in full agreement with that.
making exceptions to the laws based on whos breaking them has never, ever been part of our system.
Happy to change that, but through the normal channels and legislation thanks, not dictated from the public toilets on the beehive lawn.

---

anti vaxxers are a scab on an abscess
anti maskers are dull witted morons.
anti mandators need to wait for an election.

mix all three and add alt right shitstirrers and semi professional dissidents and its an ugly cauldron.

despite being asked multiple times what it is they want, and to start some dialogue, the crowd seem reticent to say exactly what it is they want instead to keep us and the kids safe, or anyone at all that can string together a sentence to enunciate it.
what alternative plan do these well coiffed, deep thinkers have?
its so so easy to bitch and moan and throw poo's around the paddling pool,
if theres a better way id love to hear it. we're missing out on weddings, funerals and all manner of shit.

lets hear the solution
must be in legible or coherent english not pseudo science CT Qanon sov cit gobbledygook please

[Olive]

A lot of you seem to be making the same assessment mistake that our MPs have made, and that is thinking that the protestors are a rag-tag bunch of fringe types who are just there to cause a ruckus and have a bit of fun.  If that was the case, then making it a little more unpleasant, by playing annoying music or turning on the sprinklers might have worked.

However, most of the people there (obviously there will be at least a few that fall into the category I described above) are there because they are fundamentally opposed to the vaccine mandates.  A lot of them are vaccinated themselves, and there are a whole lot more vaccinated people around the country that support their efforts.  Because, the protest is not against vaccines, it is against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system. 

They are not there on a whim or for a bit of a laugh and, although being part of a cause they believe in deeply is rewarding, they'd also all rather it be over and to be able to go back to their far more comfortable homes.  So, making their unpleasant situation a little bit more unpleasant won't do jack; they're already battling through discomfort, so some annoying music is hardly going to make them give up.

As for them being mentally deficient, bottom-dwelling, mouth-breathing virgins etc., they're well supported (both on the ground in Wellington and around NZ) by plenty of highly successful, intelligent, educated people (with kids, to address the virgin pejorative).

For the record, the protest isn't an action I'd have chosen, I'm not going to be joining them in Wellington and I do feel for the local businesses that have been negatively affected (interesting to read the Backbenchers owner's recent comments though sounding pretty close to supporting the protesters), but now that they've started I'm very much hoping they're successful in bringing forward the end of the vaccine mandate system in NZ.  It worked for the Ihumatao protesters, and a win for the Wellington protesters would be far more beneficial to the general public of NZ than Ihumatao was.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from,  but it seems likely that you are falling for the new PR spin that has now been applied, whereby the most extreme placards have been removed and the occupiers told to refrain from abuse, spitting and throwing things.   Some journalists are falling for it, others are continuing to look behind the scenes, where the lunatic beliefs are still in full force.   An example:   On the occupiers' private messageboard someone is convinced that they saw the late Paul Holmes in the crowd and that he didn't in fact die but was always a member of "the illuminati" and is now surfacing to help overthrow the government.

if you have a Twitter account, have a look at @te_taipo.  He has access to the occupiers's comms and tweets some gems.

[king1]

A lot of them are vaccinated themselves, and there are a whole lot more vaccinated people around the country that support their efforts.  Because, the protest is not against vaccines, it is against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system. 

I would be damned surprised if there was more than a few vaccinated at the protests (ok probably the police will be).  Personally it is starting to annoy me that the narrative is being focused on "mandates" and not "get f'n vaccinated"...

This protest "against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system" is nothing more than a delusion by those who refuse to get vaccinated - those who have had some of their freedoms rightfully curtailed for the safety of the other 95% of kiwis who are actually sensible.

They can call it anti-mandate all they like but it really just comes down to refusing to be vaccinated

[Oldfellah]

They are pricks who are afraid of a prick! And how dare they call themselves freedom protesters when they are taking freedom away from people.

[dken31]

theres not many people out there who do want the vaccine mandates, (just me i think) but stoically bear with them as part of the defence against Covid and its Variants. We like it no more than we liked lockdowns and getting vaccine shots. its been a time of worry and concern for us all.
How is this helping? is it going to speed up the process?
how many of the crowd, learned workaholics that they are, have any experience in medicine?
the minority might be well represented but compared to what? not mainstream thinking, nor societal abidance.
does collective angst override science because its pissy about not being allowed into mcdonalds?
does the minority have the right to impose themselves on the majority?
based on the science they present how can they be taken seriously?

whilst your well written, thought out and passionate missive is commendable i think your support is misplaced.
pitchfork politicking is not the way forward, and for once the government is in full agreement with that.
making exceptions to the laws based on whos breaking them has never, ever been part of our system.
Happy to change that, but through the normal channels and legislation thanks, not dictated from the public toilets on the beehive lawn.

---

anti vaxxers are a scab on an abscess
anti maskers are dull witted morons.
anti mandators need to wait for an election.

mix all three and add alt right shitstirrers and semi professional dissidents and its an ugly cauldron.

despite being asked multiple times what it is they want, and to start some dialogue, the crowd seem reticent to say exactly what it is they want instead to keep us and the kids safe, or anyone at all that can string together a sentence to enunciate it.
what alternative plan do these well coiffed, deep thinkers have?
its so so easy to bitch and moan and throw poo's around the paddling pool,
if theres a better way id love to hear it. we're missing out on weddings, funerals and all manner of shit.

lets hear the solution
must be in legible or coherent english not pseudo science CT Qanon sov cit gobbledygook please

What a Jekyll and Hyde response.  I was quite impressed by the first half; obviously you disagreed with my take however you did so in a intelligent and respectful manner, asking legitimate questions.  I tend to agree with you re. "pitchfork politics" and wouldn't ever recommend a "hold the government to ransom" type protest like this, however, now that it has happened, I'm not going to pretend I don't hope it will have some level of success.

Then there was the second half, which just came across as the ramblings of an angry drug-addled mind.  Trying to engage with that feels like it would be pointless.

---

A lot of you seem to be making the same assessment mistake that our MPs have made, and that is thinking that the protestors are a rag-tag bunch of fringe types who are just there to cause a ruckus and have a bit of fun.  If that was the case, then making it a little more unpleasant, by playing annoying music or turning on the sprinklers might have worked.

However, most of the people there (obviously there will be at least a few that fall into the category I described above) are there because they are fundamentally opposed to the vaccine mandates.  A lot of them are vaccinated themselves, and there are a whole lot more vaccinated people around the country that support their efforts.  Because, the protest is not against vaccines, it is against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system. 

They are not there on a whim or for a bit of a laugh and, although being part of a cause they believe in deeply is rewarding, they'd also all rather it be over and to be able to go back to their far more comfortable homes.  So, making their unpleasant situation a little bit more unpleasant won't do jack; they're already battling through discomfort, so some annoying music is hardly going to make them give up.

As for them being mentally deficient, bottom-dwelling, mouth-breathing virgins etc., they're well supported (both on the ground in Wellington and around NZ) by plenty of highly successful, intelligent, educated people (with kids, to address the virgin pejorative).

For the record, the protest isn't an action I'd have chosen, I'm not going to be joining them in Wellington and I do feel for the local businesses that have been negatively affected (interesting to read the Backbenchers owner's recent comments though sounding pretty close to supporting the protesters), but now that they've started I'm very much hoping they're successful in bringing forward the end of the vaccine mandate system in NZ.  It worked for the Ihumatao protesters, and a win for the Wellington protesters would be far more beneficial to the general public of NZ than Ihumatao was.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from,  but it seems likely that you are falling for the new PR spin that has now been applied, whereby the most extreme placards have been removed and the occupiers told to refrain from abuse, spitting and throwing things.   Some journalists are falling for it, others are continuing to look behind the scenes, where the lunatic beliefs are still in full force.   An example:   On the occupiers' private messageboard someone is convinced that they saw the late Paul Holmes in the crowd and that he didn't in fact die but was always a member of "the illuminati" and is now surfacing to help overthrow the government.

if you have a Twitter account, have a look at @te_taipo.  He has access to the occupiers's comms and tweets some gems.

You seem to be falling for the MSM spin where the focus all goes on the most extreme placards and repeated reports of spitting and abuse.  Yes, there are clearly undesirable elements in the crowd, but the general tone is pretty peaceful as evidenced by the families with kids happy to be amongst it all.

[Olive]

I know people are allowed to protest but are they allowed to abuse others, make death threats and blatantly break the law by being there after they have been trespassed.
So what the hell will it take to get rid of this vile scum and tell them to fuck off back to holes they have crawled out of? NZ Police get real do something these bastards are breaking the law and laughing at you , so come on its time to get heavy handed and disperse these poorly informed fuckwits that get all there information from Facebook, if need be call in the Army with hand grenades lol But seriously DO something!

"...are they allowed to abuse others, make death threats..."

"vile scum" ... "call in the Army with hand grenades lol"

I observe a dissonance here.

Ha ha. You're right.

[dken31]

A lot of them are vaccinated themselves, and there are a whole lot more vaccinated people around the country that support their efforts.  Because, the protest is not against vaccines, it is against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system. 

I would be damned surprised if there was more than a few vaccinated at the protests (ok probably the police will be).  Personally it is starting to annoy me that the narrative is being focused on "mandates" and not "get f'n vaccinated"...

This protest "against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system" is nothing more than a delusion by those who refuse to get vaccinated - those who have had some of their freedoms rightfully curtailed for the safety of the other 95% of kiwis who are actually sensible.

They can call it anti-mandate all they like but it really just comes down to refusing to be vaccinated

I know a lot of vaccinated people who are strongly anti-mandate.

The thing is, the mandates have no legitimate logical basis as vaccines provide, at best, minimal protection against the spread of Omicron.  There is even evidence to suggest mandates increase the spread as a lot of vaccinated passport carrying people (particularly younger people) take the view that "I'm vaccinated so can't spread Covid" and are therefore more likely to mix & mingle to a far greater extent.

[Lilith7]

They are pricks who are afraid of a prick! And how dare they call themselves freedom protesters when they are taking freedom away from people.

They just don't appear to comprehend the need.

I'd also be extremely surprised to find that any more than a handful of the protesters are actually fully vaccinated. Some among them give the strong impression that they're not operating with a full deck of cards, & you have to hope there's no pizza place nearby in case they decide someone's running a child abuse ring in the basement.

They cannot seem to comprehend that almost no one wants the vaccines to be mandatory, but those of us who can recall Polio & TB & have read a bit about  the flu epidemic in 1918, can manage to understand that there's no other option.
I'd rather not pass covid to any other person, especially my whanau - it would be extremely difficult to live with the possibility of having caused the illness or worse, the death of another person & impossible to forgive myself if I caused the death of the small children or anyone within my whanau.

So, I'm fully vaxxed & have had the booster.

Because there's no other bloody choice.

[king1]

I would be damned surprised if there was more than a few vaccinated at the protests (ok probably the police will be).  Personally it is starting to annoy me that the narrative is being focused on "mandates" and not "get f'n vaccinated"...

This protest "against vaccine mandates/the vaccine passport system" is nothing more than a delusion by those who refuse to get vaccinated - those who have had some of their freedoms rightfully curtailed for the safety of the other 95% of kiwis who are actually sensible.

They can call it anti-mandate all they like but it really just comes down to refusing to be vaccinated

I know a lot of vaccinated people who are strongly anti-mandate.

The thing is, the mandates have no legitimate logical basis as vaccines provide, at best, minimal protection against the spread of Omicron.  There is even evidence to suggest mandates increase the spread as a lot of vaccinated passport carrying people (particularly younger people) take the view that "I'm vaccinated so can't spread Covid" and are therefore more likely to mix & mingle to a far greater extent.

well yes the mandates are legitimate, and yes it is logical.  Whatever protection vaccines provide is better than not, but I leave that one to those who know the science.  
Young (and other) people ignoring rules, thinking they're bullet proof etc is nothing new and is evidence of nothing more than what most recognise as 'young and dumb'.    Doesn't excuse the behaviour or refute the evidence that vaccines and mandates work and are required

[dken31]

I know a lot of vaccinated people who are strongly anti-mandate.

The thing is, the mandates have no legitimate logical basis as vaccines provide, at best, minimal protection against the spread of Omicron.  There is even evidence to suggest mandates increase the spread as a lot of vaccinated passport carrying people (particularly younger people) take the view that "I'm vaccinated so can't spread Covid" and are therefore more likely to mix & mingle to a far greater extent.

well yes the mandates are legitimate, and yes it is logical.  Whatever protection vaccines provide is better than not, but I leave that one to those who know the science.  
Young (and other) people ignoring rules, thinking they're bullet proof etc is nothing new and is evidence of nothing more than what most recognise as 'young and dumb'.    Doesn't excuse the behaviour or refute the evidence that vaccines and mandates work and are required

Your "whatever protection vaccines provide is better than not" argument in favour of mandates shows incredibly limited powers of reason and logic.  By that same logic, we should reduce the speed limit to zero, as that would reduce the road toll to zero.

The thing is the vaccine does clearly reduce hospitalisation but it also clearly causes harm to some people.  Therefore, it needs to be a personal choice like medical treatment has generally been in free open societies.  My point re. the limited benefit to others of a person being vaccinated is relevant as that determines whether or not it is reasonable for society to impose its collective will on the individual.  In this case, there is just no clear scientific evidence that you're at greater risk of catching Covid from someone choosing to remain unvaccinated (and soon even those who choose not to get the third dose will also be classified as "not fully vaccinated") than you are from a fully vaccinated person.  Therefore, it is immoral to limit peoples freedoms based on their personal choice in this matter.

And to the "it's just a little jab, what are you afraid of" comments: it is equally valid to say "it's just a cold, what are you afraid of", particularly with regard to Omicron.

[king1]

well yes the mandates are legitimate, and yes it is logical.  Whatever protection vaccines provide is better than not, but I leave that one to those who know the science.  
Young (and other) people ignoring rules, thinking they're bullet proof etc is nothing new and is evidence of nothing more than what most recognise as 'young and dumb'.    Doesn't excuse the behaviour or refute the evidence that vaccines and mandates work and are required

Your "whatever protection vaccines provide is better than not" argument in favour of mandates shows incredibly limited powers of reason and logic.  By that same logic, we should reduce the speed limit to zero, as that would reduce the road toll to zero.

No, what it just shows is that I acknowledge not being an expert in such matters and I am happy to accept the knowledge and advice set out by those that know the best way to contain a global pandemic.  Now how the fuk that reflects on my "incredibly limited powers of reason and logic"  I have no idea.    Knowing when you're out of your league or just listening to and/or making up BS that fits your own narrative is probably a greater indication of "incredibly limited powers of reason and logic" .  But each to their own...

and for the same reason your analogy about the speed limit is equally illogically as again there are industry experts whose job it is to make determinations on the appropriate speed limit, and can do so because it is something we can control...  at the moment we take what we can in terms of protections from vaccines.  If you choose not to, so be it, limited freedoms...

[Magoo]

What a Jekyll and Hyde response.  I was quite impressed by the first half; obviously you disagreed with my take however you did so in a intelligent and respectful manner, asking legitimate questions.  I tend to agree with you re. "pitchfork politics" and wouldn't ever recommend a "hold the government to ransom" type protest like this, however, now that it has happened, I'm not going to pretend I don't hope it will have some level of success.

Then there was the second half, which just came across as the ramblings of an angry drug-addled mind.  Trying to engage with that feels like it would be pointless.

drug addled?  the protest camp had 'the strong smell of cannabis' i think the news said/read. 
at my most drug addled moment ever i would still have more functioning braincells than the collective think tank that is the protesters and their supporters. the science proves that.

yes, i added the second part, i didnt want you to mistake my clarity for tolerance

and luckily i did, as you seemed to think i want to fight crazy with platitudes.
no, i disdain these people. a pox on them.
they are seditious, anti society, anti social losers. under educated ill advised self centred parasites.

still be jolly keen to hear that better system you/they have in mind, 
that riposte met my expectations which ive substantially lowered to accommodate you.

i have grandkids under 5 and you think the unvaccinated should mix and mingle with them, to make a point. wtf?

thank god for the mandate. these sub society bottom feeders would run roughshod over the rest of us if allowed.
they cannot be trusted at all, they will do anything to make their point.  employers like the mandate, who wants that mindset on their staff?

i said above i think the mandate is great, it is, because we dont have to deal with these arsewipes polluting our public spaces and forcing their weirdo internet doctorates and twisted logic and subversive misinformation and lies on us, not to mention new and stronger strains of covid. ffs how fucking hard is it? get vaxxed dumb fucks.
may the mandates last until the last unvaccinated maggot is buried.

[king1]

well yes the mandates are legitimate, and yes it is logical.  Whatever protection vaccines provide is better than not, but I leave that one to those who know the science.  
Young (and other) people ignoring rules, thinking they're bullet proof etc is nothing new and is evidence of nothing more than what most recognise as 'young and dumb'.    Doesn't excuse the behaviour or refute the evidence that vaccines and mandates work and are required

The thing is the vaccine does clearly reduce hospitalisation but it also clearly causes harm to some people.  Therefore, it needs to be a personal choice like medical treatment has generally been in free open societies.  My point re. the limited benefit to others of a person being vaccinated is relevant as that determines whether or not it is reasonable for society to impose its collective will on the individual.  In this case, there is just no clear scientific evidence that you're at greater risk of catching Covid from someone choosing to remain unvaccinated (and soon even those who choose not to get the third dose will also be classified as "not fully vaccinated") than you are from a fully vaccinated person.  Therefore, it is immoral to limit peoples freedoms based on their personal choice in this matter.

And to the "it's just a little jab, what are you afraid of" comments: it is equally valid to say "it's just a cold, what are you afraid of", particularly with regard to Omicron.

and generally speaking this is a free and open society - if you choose not to be treated for Herpes no one will care -  but covid is different and highly transmissible without much effort, and life threatening to some - you should not be surprised to have restrictions imposed on you by society if you choose not to get vaccinated...   

The key difference here is where you say " there is just no clear scientific evidence ", we (the other 95%) say " Abundance of caution".