Antivaxxers happy to see children die

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Okay, but insulting them achieves nothing, and gets you blowback that works against your own mission. You aren't beating them, in fact you are joining them. The only way to fight idiots is by being cleverer than they are, taking the high ground, and repeatedly beating them with science, reason, and honesty. The very weapons they are unable to use.

And, there will always be some you cannot convince. Cannot help. And in the long run they will suffer the consequences. The tragedy of course being that innocents will go down with them.

There are a lot of good people on Issues, they stay out of the crap and avoid the worst of it because it provides a lively space with a lot of ongoing debate. They have not experienced it the way some of us have with the really disturbing real world threats and attempted blackmail. That is the problem with zealots, they are not worried about crossing lines, or using unacceptable tactics to get their way. They don't fight fair. And in the end, because of that, they lose.

It pays not to join them in the mud.

[Magoo]

ive not always been this bad.
things really ramped up when i saw places on social media where these fuckwits are discussing how to circumvent mask and vax laws.
when they started bullying and haranguing others online i jumped in. not everyone has the serrations on their tongue that i do. many people dont do confrontation, and are cowed by these pricks. im pushback, balance. i am a formidable prick.

so, how many friends and family should i lose before i get really really really fucked off with those that would exacerbate this toll and not say something?
is there a cut off point where i can be justified in my stance against them?
im not looking to win hearts and minds, i dont want to discuss the effacy of the vaccines and whether or not masks work. antivaxxers at this point i just want to tell you what a piece of shit human being you are. i want you to know i despise you and loathe your views. i want you to know that covid cant get you fast enough down in your rabbit holes. i want you to know i am happy to be segregated from you, that my family and friends are better off if you are not here and that i will continue to encourage segregation and mandates wherever and whenever i can to keep you and your backwards assed theories from negatively impacting our lives.

i dont care about your 'rights'. not one iota. i care about the collective right to live.. puny dickless antivax morons think their right to be an antisocial arsehole outweighs that of the safety and health of our vulnerable.

i'll not be whispering sweet nothings into any antivaxxers ear to encourage they abide, as far as im concerned that ship has sailed, youve hoisted your poisonous flag. prepare for the consequences.

[an amniote]

Magoo, I'm sorry that Covid has had such a personal impact on you. I understand your anger and support your uncompromising stance. I'd like to see more with your determination.

Two socially valuable people I care for deeply are immune-compromised. One, with a serious heart issue, has had both doses and was OK after each, but is still vulnerable. Her daughter has only had her first on the advice of her GP.

We're in a war against a formidable foe and the antivaxxers are collaborators. It makes me angry that if we win, they'll be saved by riding on our backs.

---

Okay, but insulting them achieves nothing, and gets you blowback that works against your own mission. You aren't beating them, in fact you are joining them. The only way to fight idiots is by being cleverer than they are, taking the high ground, and repeatedly beating them with science, reason, and honesty. The very weapons they are unable to use.

And, there will always be some you cannot convince. Cannot help. And in the long run they will suffer the consequences. The tragedy of course being that innocents will go down with them.

There are a lot of good people on Issues, they stay out of the crap and avoid the worst of it because it provides a lively space with a lot of ongoing debate. They have not experienced it the way some of us have with the really disturbing real world threats and attempted blackmail. That is the problem with zealots, they are not worried about crossing lines, or using unacceptable tactics to get their way. They don't fight fair. And in the end, because of that, they lose.

It pays not to join them in the mud.

What would/do you do, hunni?

The only way to fight idiots is by being cleverer than they are, taking the high ground, and repeatedly beating them with science, reason, and honesty. The very weapons they are unable to use.

I do this sometimes. It's only been an endless, draining battle. Now I'm more likely to give them a piece of my mind and move on.

I work with an antivaxxer. When Covid reaches my area I'll be making it clear to my boss that I'll no longer tolerate his presence. It'll be either him or me, and my boss knows I'm more valuable.

[king1]

anyone tell me why some would not want it reported as a covid case?

Oh it's 100% a covid case. I don't think anyone is denying that. However we don't know yet whether it's a covid death. I think that is the point being made.

Ok, so with regard to the dken31 post again, why would some not want it reported as a covid death? is there some antivaxxer argument to reject all covid deaths as being such?

[Olive]

Okay, but insulting them achieves nothing, and gets you blowback that works against your own mission. You aren't beating them, in fact you are joining them. The only way to fight idiots is by being cleverer than they are, taking the high ground, and repeatedly beating them with science, reason, and honesty. The very weapons they are unable to use.

And, there will always be some you cannot convince. Cannot help. And in the long run they will suffer the consequences. The tragedy of course being that innocents will go down with them.

There are a lot of good people on Issues, they stay out of the crap and avoid the worst of it because it provides a lively space with a lot of ongoing debate. They have not experienced it the way some of us have with the really disturbing real world threats and attempted blackmail. That is the problem with zealots, they are not worried about crossing lines, or using unacceptable tactics to get their way. They don't fight fair. And in the end, because of that, they lose.

It pays not to join them in the mud.

I agree.  I feel great pity for Magoo, but I still don't understand why he/she continues to harass this message board when from what I have read there isn't a single member here who doesn't support vaccination and vax mandates.   All that bile is just poisoning the atmosphere without accomplishing anything and I'm not surprised that he/she has been banned from other platforms.

I haven't looked at NZIssues for quite a while because it seemed to be dominated by misogynists and alt-right trolls.  There may be some good people there but they certainly weren't in evidence when I looked.

[an amniote]

I agree.  I feel great pity for Magoo, but I still don't understand why he/she continues to harass this message board when from what I have read there isn't a single member here who doesn't support vaccination and vax mandates.   All that bile is just poisoning the atmosphere without accomplishing anything and I'm not surprised that he/she has been banned from other platforms.

I haven't looked at NZIssues for quite a while because it seemed to be dominated by misogynists and alt-right trolls.  There may be some good people there but they certainly weren't in evidence when I looked.

I don't feel pity for Magoo. I feel sorrow. I hope to never be in his position.

There will always be casualties from Covid. Yet the toll can be mitigated by simple and sensible measures like vaccination, masks, social distancing, and signing in. These need to be impressed on the population. In my experience too many antivaxxers are anti-all these things. Pure arrogance.

[Lilith7]

I've also been a sometime poster at NZI & they have a large number of misogynists, racists, anti vaxxers & hard right posters, to the extent that discussion is quite difficult.
There are a handful of reasonable right posters but they're outnumbered.

I can understand your anger a bit better now, Magoo; you have good cause to be so anti & outspoken.
I disagree though that attacking them is helping your cause; insulting them is just likely to get their backs up & make them far less likely to listen to what you're saying.

What you really want is presumably, to get them to listen to another view - one which is more balanced & reasonable. I think in order to get them to at least listen, approaching them in a calm & reasonable way might be worth a try.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

What would I do? Keep arguing, but keep the insult load down. Venting is satisfying but anger shows them they have got to us. To win we have to be better controlled than they are. After all, we are on the right side, aren't we? We don't have to pick up their stones...

And yes, refusal to work or socialise alongside is a good way to protect ourselves and our families. Social distancing works!

[Magoo]

hunni's right, there are some awesome individuals for whom i have much respect over there.
there are also names that surprise me as being on board with this. really surprised
these people are seeing this anti=stance normalised and being influenced by those that would see them come to harm.

when the echo chamber starts to resonate, minds are manipulated.
i can assure you there are those that have been happy to stalk me and take other actions against me. they call me hater etc. a hater that wants people to live, go figure. my email got doxxed on one of their hangouts and i got bombarded with hate mail and abuse.
this tells me its working. this tells me that they are hearing me. theyre getting butthurt. this keeps me going.

high minded platitudes mollycoddling and begging have all failed for me. kfc vouchers, movie tickets, fail.
these are the hard core not the hesitant. 
sometimes hard decisions have to be made. unpopular decisions. otherwise hard outcomes will prevail.
the slackjawed buffoons with their silly theories need to find something else to be scaredy cats of other than our health.. stick with bogus moon landings, hillary clintons paedophilia ring, important stuff like that.

so can anyone tell me how many friends and family one should lose for it to be perfectly natural and acceptable to react like this? how desensitised to we have to become to make any number acceptable. or arguable.
death is an extreme outcome for an innocent, should not my reaction be equally extreme?
'those that see it, then say and do nothing are complicit in the harm this will cause.
afterwards will be too late to tell them what i think of them, i'll take the opportunity now.

ta

[Zurdo]

The antianti's are as bad as the anti's, so laughably bias, it's fun to stir both sides up - neither can see reason, just their own point of view. I won't get involved with either side.

[Magoo]

The antianti's are as bad as the anti's, so laughably bias, it's fun to stir both sides up - neither can see reason, just their own point of view. I won't get involved with either side.

theres a subtle difference. the anti antis want to stop the spread of covid and the death and discord it brings to us..
the antivaxxers? wo knows what they want. apparently this (lockdowns, hospitals, deaths) is ok with them. if it wasnt this it would be something else i reckon. they are anti government anti everything, covid was a gift to them to stick it to us.

theyre arseholes, so its hard for those of us who arent to follow their logic.

and Zurdo despite not getting involved with either side,
here you are getting involved with both sides.

[an amniote]

The antianti's are as bad as the anti's, so laughably bias, it's fun to stir both sides up - neither can see reason, just their own point of view. I won't get involved with either side.

The anti-deniers have science, a firm sense of social responsibility, and an ability to think critically. How is this funny?

The deniers have selfishness, arrogance, and the Dunning-Kruger effect. They have the capacity to damage lives and society, and do. How is this funny?

[Olive]

The antianti's are as bad as the anti's, so laughably bias, it's fun to stir both sides up - neither can see reason, just their own point of view. I won't get involved with either side.

Fun? FUN? What a callous attitude to sickness and death.

[Zurdo]

?????

You can't convert people to either side with argument. No one changes my mind - but I can change my mind easily. I just need information to mull over, then I embrace or reject a new point of view.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

hunni's right, there are some awesome individuals for whom i have much respect over there.
there are also names that surprise me as being on board with this. really surprised
these people are seeing this anti=stance normalised and being influenced by those that would see them come to harm.

when the echo chamber starts to resonate, minds are manipulated.
i can assure you there are those that have been happy to stalk me and take other actions against me. they call me hater etc. a hater that wants people to live, go figure. my email got doxxed on one of their hangouts and i got bombarded with hate mail and abuse.
this tells me its working. this tells me that they are hearing me. theyre getting butthurt. this keeps me going.

high minded platitudes mollycoddling and begging have all failed for me. kfc vouchers, movie tickets, fail.
these are the hard core not the hesitant. 
sometimes hard decisions have to be made. unpopular decisions. otherwise hard outcomes will prevail.
the slackjawed buffoons with their silly theories need to find something else to be scaredy cats of other than our health.. stick with bogus moon landings, hillary clintons paedophilia ring, important stuff like that.

so can anyone tell me how many friends and family one should lose for it to be perfectly natural and acceptable to react like this? how desensitised to we have to become to make any number acceptable. or arguable.
death is an extreme outcome for an innocent, should not my reaction be equally extreme?
'those that see it, then say and do nothing are complicit in the harm this will cause.
afterwards will be too late to tell them what i think of them, i'll take the opportunity now.

ta

When I was newly widowed, and for some years afterwards I was quite happy to consider all kinds of retribution for drunk drivers. Still am in a way. It is part of the ptsd that follows sudden unexpected deaths of loved ones. It breaks us into pieces, and the anger is all part of it.

But anger is a two edged sword, and we get hurt along with our targets, and those around us can suffer too. It is a hard time, and takes a lot of energy to deal with. And it doesn't bring them back.

[Lilith7]

hunni's right, there are some awesome individuals for whom i have much respect over there.
there are also names that surprise me as being on board with this. really surprised
these people are seeing this anti=stance normalised and being influenced by those that would see them come to harm.

when the echo chamber starts to resonate, minds are manipulated.
i can assure you there are those that have been happy to stalk me and take other actions against me. they call me hater etc. a hater that wants people to live, go figure. my email got doxxed on one of their hangouts and i got bombarded with hate mail and abuse.
this tells me its working. this tells me that they are hearing me. theyre getting butthurt. this keeps me going.

high minded platitudes mollycoddling and begging have all failed for me. kfc vouchers, movie tickets, fail.
these are the hard core not the hesitant. 
sometimes hard decisions have to be made. unpopular decisions. otherwise hard outcomes will prevail.
the slackjawed buffoons with their silly theories need to find something else to be scaredy cats of other than our health.. stick with bogus moon landings, hillary clintons paedophilia ring, important stuff like that.

so can anyone tell me how many friends and family one should lose for it to be perfectly natural and acceptable to react like this? how desensitised to we have to become to make any number acceptable. or arguable.
death is an extreme outcome for an innocent, should not my reaction be equally extreme?
'those that see it, then say and do nothing are complicit in the harm this will cause.
afterwards will be too late to tell them what i think of them, i'll take the opportunity now.

ta

No one is saying you shouldn't be angry, shouldn't engage with anti vaxxers, just that trying to keep a cool head & not give in to the temptation to use insults when dealing with antivaxxers might help you to make some headway with some of them.

[Me+Me]

ive not always been this bad.
things really ramped up when i saw places on social media where these fuckwits are discussing how to circumvent mask and vax laws.
when they started bullying and haranguing others online i jumped in. not everyone has the serrations on their tongue that i do.  many people dont do confrontation, and are cowed by these pricks. im pushback, balance. i am a formidable prick.

so, how many friends and family should i lose before i get really really really fucked off with those that would exacerbate this toll and not say something?
is there a cut off point where i can be justified in my stance against them?
im not looking to win hearts and minds, i dont want to discuss the effacy of the vaccines and whether or not masks work. antivaxxers at this point i just want to tell you what a piece of shit human being you are. i want you to know i despise you and loathe your views. i want you to know that covid cant get you fast enough down in your rabbit holes. i want you to know i am happy to be segregated from you, that my family and friends are better off if you are not here and that i will continue to encourage segregation and mandates wherever and whenever i can to keep you and your backwards assed theories from negatively impacting our lives.

i dont care about your 'rights'. not one iota. i care about the collective right to live..  puny dickless antivax morons think their right to be an antisocial arsehole outweighs that of the safety and health of our vulnerable.

i'll not be whispering sweet nothings into any antivaxxers ear to encourage they abide, as far as im concerned that ship has sailed, youve hoisted your poisonous flag. prepare for the consequences.

I like your attitude

---

hunni's right, there are some awesome individuals for whom i have much respect over there.
there are also names that surprise me as being on board with this. really surprised
these people are seeing this anti=stance normalised and being influenced by those that would see them come to harm.

when the echo chamber starts to resonate, minds are manipulated.
i can assure you there are those that have been happy to stalk me and take other actions against me. they call me hater etc. a hater that wants people to live, go figure. my email got doxxed on one of their hangouts and i got bombarded with hate mail and abuse.
this tells me its working. this tells me that they are hearing me. theyre getting butthurt. this keeps me going.

high minded platitudes mollycoddling and begging have all failed for me. kfc vouchers, movie tickets, fail.
these are the hard core not the hesitant. 
sometimes hard decisions have to be made. unpopular decisions. otherwise hard outcomes will prevail.
the slackjawed buffoons with their silly theories need to find something else to be scaredy cats of other than our health.. stick with bogus moon landings, hillary clintons paedophilia ring, important stuff like that.

so can anyone tell me how many friends and family one should lose for it to be perfectly natural and acceptable to react like this? how desensitised to we have to become to make any number acceptable. or arguable.
death is an extreme outcome for an innocent, should not my reaction be equally extreme?
'those that see it, then say and do nothing are complicit in the harm this will cause.
afterwards will be too late to tell them what i think of them, i'll take the opportunity now.

ta

No one is saying you shouldn't be angry, shouldn't engage with anti vaxxers, just that trying to keep a cool head & not give in to the temptation to use insults when dealing with antivaxxers might help you to make some headway with some of them.

Not when they're the hardcore ones.  I tried that on NzIssues.  Gave that place up. You CANNOT successfully use Logical arguement with the hardcore antis.  They have a twisted answer for everything.  They WANT to believe it's all a conspiracy and that Bill Gates and his friends are murdering Billions of people, (yes 70-90% of the worlds population), to get their own way.  
Idiocy like that cant' be argued with.

[Lilith7]

ive not always been this bad.
things really ramped up when i saw places on social media where these fuckwits are discussing how to circumvent mask and vax laws.
when they started bullying and haranguing others online i jumped in. not everyone has the serrations on their tongue that i do.  many people dont do confrontation, and are cowed by these pricks. im pushback, balance. i am a formidable prick.

so, how many friends and family should i lose before i get really really really fucked off with those that would exacerbate this toll and not say something?
is there a cut off point where i can be justified in my stance against them?
im not looking to win hearts and minds, i dont want to discuss the effacy of the vaccines and whether or not masks work. antivaxxers at this point i just want to tell you what a piece of shit human being you are. i want you to know i despise you and loathe your views. i want you to know that covid cant get you fast enough down in your rabbit holes. i want you to know i am happy to be segregated from you, that my family and friends are better off if you are not here and that i will continue to encourage segregation and mandates wherever and whenever i can to keep you and your backwards assed theories from negatively impacting our lives.

i dont care about your 'rights'. not one iota. i care about the collective right to live..  puny dickless antivax morons think their right to be an antisocial arsehole outweighs that of the safety and health of our vulnerable.

i'll not be whispering sweet nothings into any antivaxxers ear to encourage they abide, as far as im concerned that ship has sailed, youve hoisted your poisonous flag. prepare for the consequences.

I like your attitude

---

No one is saying you shouldn't be angry, shouldn't engage with anti vaxxers, just that trying to keep a cool head & not give in to the temptation to use insults when dealing with antivaxxers might help you to make some headway with some of them.

Not when they're the hardcore ones.  I tried that on NzIssues.  Gave that place up. You CANNOT successfully use Logical arguement with the hardcore antis.  They have a twisted answer for everything.  They WANT to believe it's all a conspiracy and that Bill Gates and his friends are murdering Billions of people, (yes 70-90% of the worlds population), to get their own way.  
Idiocy like that cant' be argued with.

The hardcore ones are beyond all hope, I think. Its a pity because the reasonable voices on the right there  tend to be drowned out by the extreme ones & ruin what could have been a good site.

[Me+Me]

I like your attitude

---

Not when they're the hardcore ones.  I tried that on NzIssues.  Gave that place up. You CANNOT successfully use Logical arguement with the hardcore antis.  They have a twisted answer for everything.  They WANT to believe it's all a conspiracy and that Bill Gates and his friends are murdering Billions of people, (yes 70-90% of the worlds population), to get their own way.  
Idiocy like that cant' be argued with.

The hardcore ones are beyond all hope, I think. Its a pity because the reasonable voices on the right there  tend to be drowned out by the extreme ones & ruin what could have been a good site.

I  would be completely unsuprised if the Police and or the SIS are actively monitoring that site and the IP addys of anyone who posts there.  Some of the things that have been posted there are pretty much a ticket to jail I'd say - or they should be.

[Magoo]

?????

You can't convert people to either side with argument. No one changes my mind - but I can change my mind easily. I just need information to mull over, then I embrace or reject a new point of view.

yes Zurdo im sure you make a valid point. you make your decision, and use facts.
the eunuchs i speak of have made their decision. im not trying to change anyones mind. i just want to tell them what a pack of arrogant ignorant death encouraging child killers they are for choosing this path.
the decision theyve reached is that we are all wrong, we are trying to subvertly take control, and that we are sinister and dishonest in our intentions.
they have decided this, not us, their decision. when we make decisions we must answer to the outcome. i will hold them to account right now. later is too late.

the constant spread and bullying, the abuse, misinformation, the condescension and general tone of the antivax movement is disgusting. i wont tolerate it.