disinformation

[Praktica]

And to answer the OP's question about prosecution of an MP - MPs have protection for statements made in parliament - it's called parliamentary privilege. An MP can be pursued through the parliamentary privileges committee, for a complaint made of misleading parliament.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

If Three Waters is communism, what would you call the current debacle that masquerades as a working system?

[nzoomed]

Agreed, and to many people, the whole three waters proposal does scream of communism to many.

A key difference is a communist government probably wouldn't recompense the affected parties which our elected government is doing.
I have no problem with it to be honest, most councils have done a crap job of running/maintaining it...

My main concern with three waters is increased costs. Our council has rather good water infrastructure and is affordable. Under the new scheme, we will likely be paying more for our water to prop up other areas that are underfunded.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Meanwhile some areas have polluted supplies, others have sold off access to overseas interests for peanuts, and still others have made no provision for increased demand, or updated supply systems.

No wonder one ring to rule them all seems sensible.

[Lilith7]

A key difference is a communist government probably wouldn't recompense the affected parties which our elected government is doing.
I have no problem with it to be honest, most councils have done a crap job of running/maintaining it...

Councils nationwide has major infrastructure neglect issues going on. They typically don't have the clout to push back against industry lobby groups or ratepayer pushback and so necessary maintenance and development doesn't get done, or is implemented to the (financial) advantage of those who have the loudest voice and deepest pockets. By transferring the control of essential infrastructure to central government a more well balanced approach can be implemented to the advantage of all sectors of the population evenly.

The continual references to communism by protesters is ill founded in almost all cases and is obviously being voiced by those who have never witnessed communist rule first hand. Under a communist regime their arguments would be shut down very quickly with those voicing them being taken out of circulation. We are a very long way from that degree of control.

If they seriously believe that nonsense that this is a 'communist govt' then either they know nothing about communist countries or they're deliberately spreading outright lies.

East Germany under communism didn't allow protest of any kind & their Stazi spied on many ordinary citizens. the USSR famously had gulags in Siberia for those who disagreed, which not many survived. Its difficult to comprehend that there are people who are apparently unaware of that.

[king1]

Councils nationwide has major infrastructure neglect issues going on. They typically don't have the clout to push back against industry lobby groups or ratepayer pushback and so necessary maintenance and development doesn't get done, or is implemented to the (financial) advantage of those who have the loudest voice and deepest pockets. By transferring the control of essential infrastructure to central government a more well balanced approach can be implemented to the advantage of all sectors of the population evenly.

The continual references to communism by protesters is ill founded in almost all cases and is obviously being voiced by those who have never witnessed communist rule first hand. Under a communist regime their arguments would be shut down very quickly with those voicing them being taken out of circulation. We are a very long way from that degree of control.

If they seriously believe that nonsense that this is a 'communist govt' then either they know nothing about communist countries or they're deliberately spreading outright lies.

East Germany under communism didn't allow protest of any kind & their Stazi spied on many ordinary citizens. the USSR famously had gulags in Siberia for those who disagreed, which not many survived. Its difficult to comprehend that there are people who are apparently unaware of that.

and China has their reeducation camps, possible new residence of the chinese tennis player in the news recently

[harm_less]

You only have to watch the Chernobyl TV series to see what goes on in how a communist regime treats its citizens.

Even filling out the Chinese entry visa documentation is enough to get a hint of the control measures in place.

[Yogi]

And to answer the OP's question about prosecution of an MP - MPs have protection for statements made in parliament - it's called parliamentary privilege. An MP can be pursued through the parliamentary privileges committee, for a complaint made of misleading parliament. 
Yea i knew that, however the point is valid that if you want to stop misinformation and are prepared to prosecute people for it then those at the top have to set an example. 

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I see someone is trying to import NZ Issues' culture wars. 
nzoomed invited me to come over and give this board another go after i told him it is dead over here. 
Looks like it worked as this is the hottest thread in about a week. You are welcome.

For the record ex 3tomany.

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Just a question for you all. Since some Maori protesters have showed up at events as anti vaxers, who claim their cultural rights have been taken away, would that same idiot MP stand upon in parliament and call the protesters racist anti vaxers?
The answer is no he would not.

For the record i believe those Maori doing that, have the right to have their voice heard just as anyone else does.

[Praktica]

What makes the Groundswell organisation "good", yogi?

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Rumour has it the Taxpayers Union is behind these ' farmers' protests. True? Or more fake news?

[Praktica]

Rumour has it the Taxpayers Union is behind these ' farmers' protests. True? Or more fake news?

It appears that they are behind at least one of the protest websites - perhaps the farmers didn't understand the sort of vipers nests they could be getting into?

[Yogi]

What makes the Groundswell organisation "good", yogi?

The cause is good as their are so many unworkable regulations and taxes coming that farming, our biggest earner is being destroyed leaving probably china as our soon to be biggest farmer.  My family farm has been sold of as lifestyle blocks rather than staying in production as i can see the writing on the wall. Where is our future income going to come from as not just farming but mining, manufacturing, paper mills, refineries, steel mills and foundries  etc are all closing down due to over regulation.

[harm_less]

What makes the Groundswell organisation "good", yogi?

The cause is good as their are so many unworkable regulations and taxes coming that farming, our biggest earner is being destroyed leaving probably china as our soon to be biggest farmer.  My family farm has been sold of as lifestyle blocks rather than staying in production as i can see the writing on the wall. Where is our future income going to come from as not just farming but mining, manufacturing, paper mills, refineries, steel mills and foundries  etc are all closing down due to over regulation.

All of the industries you mention are becoming uneconomic. Economic viability is pretty hard to compete against and propaganda based on shoddy science just doesn't cut it in the modern world. It is becoming apparent we have been living a fools dream for the past half decade and it's now a case of doing our best to repair and hopefully reverse the damage we have inflicted on our planet, which is of course going to come at a cost to those who have been riding the gravy train up until now.

One of NZ's great strengths is its ability to innovate so we should now draw on that ability to find our sustainable place in the world, and transporting low value products which often have minimal added value input isn't going to serve that purpose. Located as we are down here in the bottom left hand corner of the Pacific we are further away from our markets than virtually any of our competitors so we need to produce high value good in a form that is acceptable to a very environmentally aware world. If not the fuel miles will continue to kill our market viability.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I wonder though if they are aware that they are at risk of dancing because someone else is pulling their strings? It is so easy to get swept up into things that benefit others, even farmers are not immune from being used by other agendas.

[Magoo]

life is like hot mustard on a dogs arse
you run because it burns

[Me+Me]

Meanwhile ............others have sold off access to overseas interests for peanuts, 

THAT should be absolutely ILLEGAL.  Selling BILLIONS of litres of water for $0.10c per 1000 Litres is about as stupid as it gets.

[Magoo]

water will be the new oil
and the arabs are going to have to watch its price rise by the barrel to outrageously greedy levels.

its a dish well served cold.

[Yogi]

The cause is good as their are so many unworkable regulations and taxes coming that farming, our biggest earner is being destroyed leaving probably china as our soon to be biggest farmer.  My family farm has been sold of as lifestyle blocks rather than staying in production as i can see the writing on the wall. Where is our future income going to come from as not just farming but mining, manufacturing, paper mills, refineries, steel mills and foundries  etc are all closing down due to over regulation.

All of the industries you mention are becoming uneconomic. Economic viability is pretty hard to compete against and propaganda based on shoddy science just doesn't cut it in the modern world. It is becoming apparent we have been living a fools dream for the past half decade and it's now a case of doing our best to repair and hopefully reverse the damage we have inflicted on our planet, which is of course going to come at a cost to those who have been riding the gravy train up until now.

One of NZ's great strengths is its ability to innovate so we should now draw on that ability to find our sustainable place in the world, and transporting low value products which often have minimal added value input isn't going to serve that purpose. Located as we are down here in the bottom left hand corner of the Pacific we are further away from our markets than virtually any of our competitors so we need to produce high value good in a form that is acceptable to a very environmentally aware world. If not the fuel miles will continue to kill our market viability.

There is no other industry to replace what we are losing. Some tek companies will thrive but other than that all we have is to borrow until we can borrow no more. Our farmers are the most environmentally friendly in the world so shifting our farming to other countries is not helping the environment. Shifting our mills and manufacturing to China and India is not good for the environment as they are burning 40% more coal this year alone to fill that demand from the western world.

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https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/...021-10-22/

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https://fortune.com/2021/10/08/india-is-...ical-lows/

[harm_less]

All of the industries you mention are becoming uneconomic. Economic viability is pretty hard to compete against and propaganda based on shoddy science just doesn't cut it in the modern world. It is becoming apparent we have been living a fools dream for the past half decade and it's now a case of doing our best to repair and hopefully reverse the damage we have inflicted on our planet, which is of course going to come at a cost to those who have been riding the gravy train up until now.

One of NZ's great strengths is its ability to innovate so we should now draw on that ability to find our sustainable place in the world, and transporting low value products which often have minimal added value input isn't going to serve that purpose. Located as we are down here in the bottom left hand corner of the Pacific we are further away from our markets than virtually any of our competitors so we need to produce high value good in a form that is acceptable to a very environmentally aware world. If not the fuel miles will continue to kill our market viability.

There is no other industry to replace what we are losing. Some tek companies will thrive but other than that all we have is to borrow until we can borrow no more. Our farmers are the most environmentally friendly in the world so shifting our farming to other countries is not helping the environment. Shifting our mills and manufacturing to China and India is not good for the environment as they are burning 40% more coal this year alone to fill that demand from the western world.

Our dairy farmers are on a hiding to nothing so long as their milk is shipped off with only the water removed. Shipping costs are similar for a container of milk powder as for one full of fine cheese (more so if it's certified Organic) or pharmaceutical grade by-products. It's a matter of working smarter not harder as NZ's environment is what's doing the heavy lifting and it's starting to come apart at the seams.

A similar case can be made for forestry and numerous other horticulturally or agriculturally based industries. We should be capitalising (and value adding) by way of our environmental integrity not degrading it in an attempt to make a quick buck.

The links you provide reinforce the point of differentiating our products as far from those from such country's outputs. To compete with those countries head to head is a sure fire road to economic failure and environmental ruin for NZ.

[yousnoozeyoulose]

I get where you're coming from Yogi, but I can't see how subdividing the family farm into what are essentially unproductive (or far less productive) little blocks is logically consistent with what you want to happen. It's unlikely these blocks will ever join back up (T-1000 style), so you've taken your own little steps to destroying farming. Well done?

There's an element of jest there, so don't be offended.

Must scoot, got a few loads of dead pine to haul. Would be nice to have a trailer but I guess today is going to be an arm day. I am the Weediest He-Man.