+- Too Many Message Boards (http://tmmb.mywire.org)
+-- Forum: General Topics (http://tmmb.mywire.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Opinion and Politics (http://tmmb.mywire.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=75)
+--- Thread: "New" policy from Luxon, National (/showthread.php?tid=1488)
Pages:
1
2
"New" policy from Luxon, National - Lilith7 - 07-08-2022
Except it isn't new at all, its the very same tired old 'get tough on beneficiaries'. 
They want to 'help' young people into work, which would be fine if they'd just do something which really would help, such as perhaps free courses so younger people can learn new skills which may enable them to get a job. 
But claiming young people 'don't want to work' & must be punished if they don't find a job isn't really helpful.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/08/07/luxon-targets-youth-benefit-dependency-in-new-policy/
"National leader Christopher Luxon has announced a plan to support unemployed youth into personalised job coaching sessions - or face benefit sanctions - as part of new welfare policy announced at his party's annual conference.
"National thinks that if youÔÇÖre young and you can work, you should. And if you canÔÇÖt find a job, you need encouragement to keep taking active steps till you get one," the party leader said.
"To young people who donÔÇÖt want to work: You might have a free ride under Labour, but under National, it ends."
Under the new policy, National said it would offer a $1000 bonus to a person who is under 25, has been on the benefit for 12 months or longer, and who then starts work and stays off the benefit for the next year.
"Those who blatantly do not follow their agreed plan - meaning they donÔÇÖt turn up for courses, donÔÇÖt apply for jobs or donÔÇÖt engage with their jobs coach - will face sanctions."
Speaking to the media, Luxon said implementing the policy could mean reducing MSD's resourcing: "Whatever it takes to get an outcome, we're going to do it. And if that means we're going to be powering down MSD resources and budgets, and redirecting that very strongly into community organisations - we will do that."
That last comment could be taken to mean they'd stop paying a benefit if someone fails to find work; I hope they have more sense than that, if not empathy. It all sounds like their old 'work for the dole' scheme from years ago.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/08/national-s-new-welfare-policy-completely-out-of-touch-shows-depressingly-familiar-side-opposing-politicians-say.html
The Green Party's spokesperson for social development, Ricardo Men├®ndez March, said thousands of families will go hungry and cold under National.
"Forcing people into employment, no matter how unsuitable, isn't the answer. Increasing benefit sanctions will simply push people into hardship and criminalise families who need support. And National continues to wilfully ignore the reality that many people on jobseeker benefits have health conditions and already do critical work such as caregiving and in the community."
Men├®ndez March said the Greens are focused on enabling people to fully participate in their communities and meet their aspirations.
"By ensuring people have liveable incomes we ensure they have the opportunities to go into training, to look after their families and pursue education," he said."The changes the Greens will make will lift people out of poverty and unlock what everyone needs to live a good life. We have a track record of advocating for liveable wages and good working conditions that would help build a fairer, more equitable Aotearoa where everyone has what they need to provide for their families, a roof over their heads, and food on the table."
Sepuloni said young people aren't getting a "free ride" under the current Government - something that Luxon asserted was happening.
"How we view young people is as a group of people that have potential. If they're on welfare and they're in the welfare system, then we want to make sure that they get access to the support that they need to be able to realise that potential," she said.
"Things like 49,000 people getting an apprenticeship boost, over 5000 now in Mana in Mahi, and one-third of the nearly 18,000 on flexi-wage are young people as well. Those are the types of investments that actually help young people get ahead."RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Wainuiguy - 07-08-2022
As someone with contacts at WINZ I can assure you that there is no longer ANY focus on getting people into work quickly. Clients aren't even a focus until they have been on job seeker support for 12 plus months. They are no longer required to actively seek work and have no consequences for failing drug tests, failing to attend courses or interviews or see their case manager.
Anything to actively engage with and in this case reward those on long term support is a good thing. BTW the sanctions he is talking about are already part of the law - Labour under Sepiloni have simply chosen to ignore what is already legislated
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Oh_hunnihunni - 08-08-2022
Funny, that isn't the experience my friend is enduring right now. She is 62, raising her ten year old grandson who has severe behavioural issues due to being neurodiverse. He is currently coming out of a suspension (for punching the headmistress...) and is on mornings only at school. She is naturally on call as his parent, but WINZ want her to be actively seeking work and require her to demonstrate that with various lists and forms and attending interviews...
Her twenty something case manager seems unable to comprehend the challenges of parenting such a child and keeping him out of the welfare system, so her focus is on her job, not her client's needs...
The trouble is the gulf between what is policy, and what is actually happening in the branch offices of WINZ. And as my friend says, only three more years and she will graduate out of solo parent territory and into Super, and then she will be treated like an adult human being.
She can't wait.
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Praktica - 08-08-2022
Wainuiguy has come here all pumped after watching Loser Luxon at national's conference, and he'd like to share with you the stories that the spin weasels at national cooked up...
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Wainuiguy - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 08:21 AM)Praktica Wrote: Wainuiguy has come here all pumped after watching Loser Luxon at national's conference, and he'd like to share with you the stories that the spin weasels at national cooked up...Didnt watch it at all but did read about it.  Seems any focus to get long term unemployed into employment should be considered a good thing.
(08-08-2022, 07:44 AM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Funny, that isn't the experience my friend is enduring right now. She is 62, raising her ten year old grandson who has severe behavioural issues due to being neurodiverse. He is currently coming out of a suspension (for punching the headmistress...) and is on mornings only at school. She is naturally on call as his parent, but WINZ want her to be actively seeking work and require her to demonstrate that with various lists and forms and attending interviews...I will match my contact who has wide experience across multiple offices with your single example.  Theirs would be more indicative of actual reality.
Her twenty something case manager seems unable to comprehend the challenges of parenting such a child and keeping him out of the welfare system, so her focus is on her job, not her client's needs...
The trouble is the gulf between what is policy, and what is actually happening in the branch offices of WINZ. And as my friend says, only three more years and she will graduate out of solo parent territory and into Super, and then she will be treated like an adult human being.
She can't wait.
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Lilith7 - 08-08-2022
As someone who also has contacts at WINZ, to claim that people aren't encouraged & helped into jobs simply isn't the case. There are very, very few people who genuinely don't want to work.
And yes, there's a marked difference between the way people on benefits other then Superannuation are treated. There shouldn't be, but there is & a part of the problem amy be WINZ employing people who lack life experience by virtue of their youth.
The Nats aren't 'trying to engage young people' - they're dragging out their beneficiary scapegoat group again in hopes of gaining votes from those who don't understand that most people including young people, prefer to work when work with a reasonable wage is available.
Some fact checks, Bryan Bruce:
https://www.facebook.com/www.redsky.tv
"At their annual conference NationalÔÇÖs leader Christopher Luxon is reported as stating .
"To young people who don't want to work: You might have a free ride under Labour, but under National, it ends."
Putting aside for a moment the inference that all young unemployed people are lazy, a quick look at the Statistics NZ site reveals :
(a) The youth unemployment rate has actually dropped.
While the Youth unemployment rate is 9.2% (and we certainly need to continue to address that issue) the rate actually went up to 18.4% shortly after John Key took office as Prime Minister, stayed high during NationalÔÇÖs term of office and only dropped down to 9.2% after a Labour led coalition took office in 2017.
(b) Youth are a traditional source of seasonal labour.
In other words a lot of young people are working seasonally and trying to pay for their education.
© A glance at the ethnicity figures tells you it is Young M─üori and Pacific people who have consistently had higher unemployment rates than young Pakiha. In the September 2021 quarter, the youth unemployment rates (not seasonally adjusted) were 7.8 percent for NZ European, 15.5 percent for M─üori, 11.2 percent for Pacific, and 9.6 percent for Asian groups.
We know that Maori and Pacific peoples are more affected by poverty issues than any other group and that racism is another factor in unemployment statistics that some politicians would rather we did not talk about.
(d) Over 6000 young people are involved in caregiving ÔÇô they are not lazy
(e) Lastly it is the 25-60 age group that tend to be longer unemployed than the 15-24 year olds
Policies that snipe rather than tackle the source of most of our social issues - inequality and poverty - don't impress me."
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Wainuiguy - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 11:25 AM)Lilith7 Wrote: As someone who also has contacts at WINZ,  to claim that people aren't encouraged & helped into jobs simply isn't the case. There are very, very few people who genuinely don't want to work.Hmmm was there something that happened in 2008 that caused that lift in unemployment?  Let me think....
And yes, there's a marked difference between the way people on  benefits other then Superannuation are treated. There shouldn't be, but there is & a part of the problem amy be WINZ employing people who lack life experience by virtue of their youth.
The Nats aren't 'trying to engage young people' - they're dragging out their beneficiary scapegoat group again in hopes of gaining votes from those who don't understand  that most people including young people, prefer to work when work with a reasonable wage is available.
Some fact checks, Bryan Bruce:
https://www.facebook.com/www.redsky.tv
"At their┬á annual conference NationalÔÇÖs leader Christopher Luxon is reported as stating .
"To young people who don't want to work: You might have a free ride under Labour, but under National, it ends."
Putting aside for a moment the inference that all young unemployed people are lazy, a quick look at the Statistics NZ site reveals :
(a) The youth unemployment rate has actually dropped.
While the┬á Youth unemployment rate is 9.2% (and we certainly need to continue to address that issue) the rate actually went up to 18.4% shortly after John Key took office as Prime Minister, stayed high during NationalÔÇÖs term of office and only dropped down to 9.2% after a Labour led coalition took office in 2017.
(b) Youth are a traditional source of seasonal labour.
In other words a lot of young people are working seasonally and trying to pay for their education.
© A glance at the ethnicity figures┬á tells you┬á it is Young M─üori and Pacific people who have consistently had higher unemployment rates than young Pakiha. In the September 2021 quarter, the youth unemployment rates (not seasonally adjusted) were 7.8 percent for NZ European, 15.5 percent for M─üori, 11.2 percent for Pacific, and 9.6 percent for Asian groups.
We know that Maori and Pacific peoples are more affected by poverty issues than any other group and that racism is another factor in unemployment  statistics that some politicians would rather we did not talk about.
(d) Over 6000 young people are involved in caregiving ÔÇô they are not lazy
(e) Lastly  it is  the 25-60  age group that  tend to be longer unemployed than the 15-24  year olds
Policies that snipe rather than tackle the source of most of our social issues - inequality and poverty - don't impress me."
And the rate didnt just magically decrease when labour came to power in 2017.  It was already on it's way down.  The time to focus on someone out of work is the first 3 to 4 months the time when their motivation to find work is the highest.  Waiting until 12 months or more already has them at a much lower ebb.  And giving them a cash incentive to stay in work is a great thing but the stick needs to be there for those who would choose to not engage in the job seeking.
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - king1 - 08-08-2022
(07-08-2022, 09:52 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: As someone with contacts at WINZ I can assure you that there is no longer ANY focus on getting people into work quickly.  Clients aren't even a focus until they have been on job seeker support for 12 plus months.  They are no longer required to actively seek work and have no consequences for failing drug tests, failing to attend courses or interviews or see their case manager.Most of that is contrary to what they state on the website
Anything to actively engage with and in this case reward those on long term support is a good thing.  BTW the sanctions he is talking about are already part of the law - Labour under Sepiloni have simply chosen to ignore what is already legislated
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/on-a-benefit/obligations/not-meeting-your-obligations.html
It may be that under Labour they have a bit more discretion to enforce or otherwise, based on individual circumstances.  
Being a government department most of what and how they operate is mandated by NZ law, so they would be in breach of legislation if it was as bad as you suggest...  Maybe there is a covid recovery policy still in play that affects their discretion? who knows...
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Lilith7 - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 11:43 AM)king1 Wrote:(07-08-2022, 09:52 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: As someone with contacts at WINZ I can assure you that there is no longer ANY focus on getting people into work quickly.  Clients aren't even a focus until they have been on job seeker support for 12 plus months.  They are no longer required to actively seek work and have no consequences for failing drug tests, failing to attend courses or interviews or see their case manager.Most of that is contrary to what they state on the website
Anything to actively engage with and in this case reward those on long term support is a good thing.  BTW the sanctions he is talking about are already part of the law - Labour under Sepiloni have simply chosen to ignore what is already legislated
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/on-a-benefit/obligations/not-meeting-your-obligations.html
It may be that under Labour they have a bit more discretion to enforce or otherwise, based on individual circumstances.  
Being a government department most of what and how they operate is mandated by NZ law, so they would be in breach of legislation if it was as bad as you suggest...  Maybe there is a covid recovery policy still in play that affects their discretion? who knows...
Indeed - I believe that there are penalties now, if people are found to not be looking for work but the right prefers to ignore that when doing a bit of bene bashing in their vote catching efforts.
No doubt it will be 'get tough on crime' at any minute, the other long standing Nat favourite when there's an election getting closer...
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - king1 - 08-08-2022
ok more info 
5583 benefits sanctioned as of June 2022, for unfulfilled work obligations
bottom of page 5, top of page  6
https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/2022/benefit-fact-sheets-snapshot-june-2022.pdf
From here
https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/index.html
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Wainuiguy - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 11:43 AM)king1 Wrote:As i stated legislation is in place for penalties and this is being ignored.  Situations where a case worker has nominated penalties is often overridden by management.  (07-08-2022, 09:52 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: As someone with contacts at WINZ I can assure you that there is no longer ANY focus on getting people into work quickly.  Clients aren't even a focus until they have been on job seeker support for 12 plus months.  They are no longer required to actively seek work and have no consequences for failing drug tests, failing to attend courses or interviews or see their case manager.Most of that is contrary to what they state on the website
Anything to actively engage with and in this case reward those on long term support is a good thing.  BTW the sanctions he is talking about are already part of the law - Labour under Sepiloni have simply chosen to ignore what is already legislated
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/on-a-benefit/obligations/not-meeting-your-obligations.html
It may be that under Labour they have a bit more discretion to enforce or otherwise, based on individual circumstances.  
Being a government department most of what and how they operate is mandated by NZ law, so they would be in breach of legislation if it was as bad as you suggest...  Maybe there is a covid recovery policy still in play that affects their discretion? who knows...
I am hearing this first hand from someone who works in several offices.  Someone who has seen the decline in services offered to WINZ clients.  This is no Chinese whispers from my mates sisters cousin.
(08-08-2022, 12:01 PM)king1 Wrote: ok more info Thanks for posting evidence that sanctions are indeed not being applied for failing to seek work- down 2/3rds since 2017.
5583 benefits sanctioned as of June 2022, for unfulfilled work obligations
bottom of page 5, top of page  6
https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/2022/benefit-fact-sheets-snapshot-june-2022.pdf
From here
https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/index.html
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Oh_hunnihunni - 08-08-2022
Oh of course. Organisations always tell the unvarnished truth on their websites. As do employees of said organisations.
After all, they have nothing to lose, do they?
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Oldfellah - 08-08-2022
Go Luxon 
 Lets get rid of these Labour pussies .... yeahhhh 
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - king1 - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 12:03 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:Might be lower because of labour undoing Nationals shoot first ask questions later kinda policies.
(08-08-2022, 12:01 PM)king1 Wrote: ok more info Thanks for posting evidence that sanctions are indeed not being applied for failing to seek work- down 2/3rds since 2017.
5583 benefits sanctioned as of June 2022, for unfulfilled work obligations
bottom of page 5, top of page  6
https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/2022/benefit-fact-sheets-snapshot-june-2022.pdf
From here
https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/index.html
But, what is a fact is that it is clear what you are asserting is just not true... Must be those rose tinted spectacles
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Wainuiguy - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 01:50 PM)king1 Wrote:Might......hmmm.  well evidence (your numbers) clearly shows that sanctions are not being applied and decreased ever since 2017.  Let stick with that rather than some "feels"(08-08-2022, 12:03 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:Might be lower because of labour undoing Nationals shoot first ask questions later kinda policies.
Thanks for posting evidence that sanctions are indeed not being applied for failing to seek work- down 2/3rds since 2017.
But, what is a fact is that it is clear what you are asserting is just not true... Must be those rose tinted spectacles
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Praktica - 08-08-2022
Perhaps fewer sanctions are applied because beneficiaries are being treated more fairly, and are moving on to jobs. That is just as likely as the boneheaded national party view.
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Wainuiguy - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 02:14 PM)Praktica Wrote: Perhaps fewer sanctions are applied because beneficiaries are being treated more fairly, and are moving on to jobs. That is just as likely as the boneheaded national party view.Considering the number on this benefit have increased around 50000 since 2017 this seems rather unlikely dont you think?
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Lilith7 - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 02:14 PM)Praktica Wrote: Perhaps fewer sanctions are applied because beneficiaries are being treated more fairly, and are moving on to jobs. That is just as likely as the boneheaded national party view.That will be anathema to some - its so handy to trot the same old scapegoat groups whenever there's an election in the wind.
I suppose its too much to expect that all parties actually put aside their petty point scoring & work on things together, for the good of the country since many of them seem incapable of thinking further ahead than their 3 year term. I don't know why it is but once in parliament they seem to forget how to be adults.
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - king1 - 08-08-2022
(08-08-2022, 01:58 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: 'not being applied' and 'decreased ever since 2017'' is ever so slightly contradictory.  They are either applied or they are not.  Any value above zero suggests sanctions are being applied but your logic tells you over 5000 sanctions is evidence of them not being applied...(08-08-2022, 01:50 PM)king1 Wrote: Might be lower because of labour undoing Nationals shoot first ask questions later kinda policies.Might......hmmm.  well evidence (your numbers) clearly shows that sanctions are not being applied and decreased ever since 2017.  Let stick with that rather than some "feels"
But, what is a fact is that it is clear what you are asserting is just not true... Must be those rose tinted spectacles
RE: "New" policy from Luxon, National - Praktica - 08-08-2022
Wainuiguy obviously wants the beatings to continue until the complaining stops!