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+--- Thread: the Ukrainian Question (/showthread.php?tid=1207)
the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
i see some parallels between the russia/ukraine, and the Ireland/england relationship.
and to a degree the palestinian/israeli question.
russia has a long and complicated relationship with the ukraine going back centuries.
i think the russians actually paid for a large portion of ukraine in the 16th century?
it could even be said that ukraine annexed russia, it being an economic powerhouse back then,
and kiev well established as a city before moscow.
it was russia that took the crimea creating a good chunk of todays ukraine.
but by the 1800's ukraine was part of russian empire.
it wasnt until the 1917 turbulence did the ukraine declare itself sovereign from russia
and the russians took it back off them soon as the revolution was over.
i think kruschev was ukrainian?
what really drew the ukraines together as an entity was when the russians allowed 6 million of its population to starve to death in the 30's.
interesting side note the ukrainians  were instrumental in the formation of the UN
it seems cut and dried to us, russia bad, leave independent ukraine alone, but there is so much more to it.
russia built the ukraine with russian rubles, and along with the austrians kept it until the communists got there.
in russian minds they have a legitimate claim to it.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Oh_hunnihunni - 11-03-2022
So many nations have had to put up with uninvited occupation by greedy immoral neighbours. I have Scottish and Irish genes, I empathise with the helplessness the Ukrainians must be feeling, and the anger. But I also understand that humanity has a dark side, and when a powerful leader loses his mind there can only be tragedy to come.
Insanity is the only explanation for this kind of unwarranted aggression, and in the 21st century we are supposed to be better than this...
RE: the Ukrainian Question - king1 - 11-03-2022
I thought this was interesting also, for even more perspective
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/
RE: the Ukrainian Question - harm_less - 11-03-2022
There's a hell of a lot of historical baggage and international interference involved in what is now happening in Ukraine. This is a very enlightening expose' on Ukraine's history
https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html (No embed category for this platform)
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 07:55 AM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: So many nations have had to put up with uninvited occupation by greedy immoral neighbours. I have Scottish and Irish genes, I empathise with the helplessness the Ukrainians must be feeling, and the anger. But I also understand that humanity has a dark side, and when a powerful leader loses his mind there can only be tragedy to come.yet its everywhere.
Insanity is the only explanation for this kind of unwarranted aggression, and in the 21st century we are supposed to be better than this...
somehow the ukraine have garnered the hearts and minds of the world.
i'll not mention afghanistan, who know about occupation, nor the palestinians.
does the world care that the exact same thing is being repeated in the Sudan, eritrea, tibet.
is it pertinent that ukraine occupies what was once Czechoslovakian Ruthinia?
will we cut off ukraine until they give it back?
greedy immoral neighbours can be a boon as well as a burden. ask a mexican.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - king1 - 11-03-2022
and on the subject of Ukraine, anyone notice the logo change?
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
heres a doozy.
theres a country in the south pacific that forged a treaty with a powerful entity, that entity went on to dishonour that treaty, effectively stealing the land and subjugating the native population. an occupation by any other name
should that entity give it back and go home? would that entity go to war to keep it?
bears rumination.
(11-03-2022, 08:46 AM)king1 Wrote: and on the subject of Ukraine, anyone notice the logo change?is there something brighter up there?
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Olive - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 08:46 AM)king1 Wrote: and on the subject of Ukraine, anyone notice the logo change?I hadn't noticed, but good on you.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
i had noticed but cant figure out whats different.
it seems oranger.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Lilith7 - 11-03-2022
I sometimes wonder how different our world might be, had our ancestors stuck to fair trading rather than colonising & exploiting.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - king1 - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 10:25 AM)Olive Wrote:this was nzoomed, a mark of respect and solidarity with Ukraine(11-03-2022, 08:46 AM)king1 Wrote: and on the subject of Ukraine, anyone notice the logo change?I hadn't noticed, but good on you.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 11:10 AM)Lilith7 Wrote: I sometimes wonder how different our world might be, had our ancestors stuck to fair trading rather than colonising & exploiting.alas our societies fall victim to our bountiful world, and the human animal.
those societies that have to focus on survival in the harshest environments have neither the time nor inclination for conquest. think inuits, aborignals tahitians? etc
those tribes that had to survive harsh winters learned to grow/hunt/plan enough to get through them.
and advanced in terms of planning, cropping and animal husbandry, leaving time to grow in other respects.
technology and war.
this gave them an advantage over their equatorial counterparts that they were quick to exploit
and so it begins...
up until the romans much of this knowledge was geographically exclusive, the romans were great empire builders and exporters
they melded the knowledge gleaned across their empire and took it to the rest of the then known world.
so catastrophic was the roman depopulation of england the english went into the 'dark ages' without them.
took them a thousand years to catch up.
as occupations go it wasnt so sinister.
if man were perfect we would have used that perfection to build a world that would ultimately destroy him.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Oh_hunnihunni - 11-03-2022
Considering some of the habits of the Romans along with their social values, 'wasn't so sinister' is not the descriptor I would have used for their treatment of the local populations.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 12:20 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Considering some of the habits of the Romans along with their social values, 'wasn't so sinister' is not the descriptor I would have used for their treatment of the local populations.nature of the beast 
would the moors have been better taskmasters?
the scale is varying degrees of bad unfortunately
we need only look to the english and their swathe of occupations centuries before the knowledge of their occupiers was turned into something tangible, then we saw the greatest occupiers of them all, the british crown and its empire.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Lilith7 - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 12:20 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Considering some of the habits of the Romans along with their social values, 'wasn't so sinister' is not the descriptor I would have used for their treatment of the local populations. Indeed. 
But the thing is though that we didn't have to behave like that; we didn't have to invade other countries & subjugate other people.
There are two sides to human nature, one of which is none too keen to diminish others & have power over them, but sadly, the side which is hell bent on doing exactly that has too often been to the fore in our past. Discovering 'new' countries & brutalising the population in order to nick anything not nailed down has taken precedence.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
Quote:lilith wrotei cannot concur.
 Indeed. 
But the thing is though that we didn't have to behave like that; we didn't have to invade other countries & subjugate other people.
we do have to do it. we are driven to do it, its instinctual. innate.
from cain and abel and everything thereafter we have been at war with each other
with nature, with the elements, with our souls.
like ants, we do it, its what we do. it needs no explanation, there is none. 
its inevitable, like the bunny on the crocodiles back good intention is trumped by instinct.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Lilith7 - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 02:28 PM)Magoo Wrote:Certainly there's that side to our nature, but we don't have to behave in that way.Quote:lilith wrotei cannot concur.
 Indeed. 
But the thing is though that we didn't have to behave like that; we didn't have to invade other countries & subjugate other people.
we do have to do it. we are driven to do it, its instinctual. innate.
from cain and abel and everything thereafter we have been at war with each other
with nature, with the elements, with our souls.
like ants, we do it, its what we do. it needs no explanation, there is none. 
its inevitable, like the bunny on the crocodiles back good intention is trumped by instinct.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
(11-03-2022, 02:30 PM)Lilith7 Wrote:maybe not, but only in the absence of a better way.(11-03-2022, 02:28 PM)Magoo Wrote: i cannot concur.Certainly there's that side to our nature, but we don't have to behave in that way.
we do have to do it. we are driven to do it, its instinctual. innate.
from cain and abel and everything thereafter we have been at war with each other
with nature, with the elements, with our souls.
like ants, we do it, its what we do. it needs no explanation, there is none. 
its inevitable, like the bunny on the crocodiles back good intention is trumped by instinct.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Lilith7 - 11-03-2022
Thing is though, we also have an instinct to save lives, to help others if its needed. We're bizarre, contrary creatures, we humans.
RE: the Ukrainian Question - Magoo - 11-03-2022
the instinct to 'save lives' quickly turns to 'save our own lives' when under threat
and just as quickly to 'save our own lives by taking theirs' at war.