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+--- Thread: He Pau Pau (/showthread.php?tid=1260)
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 09:25 AM)king1 Wrote: and as an aside, as I see it this is a classic example of CT nutter ideas, by not reading shit properly, taking shit out of context, and spewing out, the out of context shit, as 'facts'oh dear, you educated yourself and look what happened...
The power of Veto is not related to He PuaPua as claimed in the OP but from a completely separate source...
The power of Veto is not 'over the entire health system' as claimed in the OP but only over the Design/Build phase...
Out of context
Overstated the reach
Exaggerated the impact
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 02-04-2022
The very fact that you publicly acknowledge you are willing to be dishonest, commit fraud even, in order to benefit from the system suggests that the reason you are so fearful of this change is simply transference. You think everyone is as greedy and self oriented as you are.
It simply isn't the case.
But I can see how that might make someone a bit racist, along with all the other stuff. Do you hate women too by any chance?
RE: He Pau Pau - Oldfellah - 02-04-2022
Shoot me down in flames if you like.
BUT
New Zealand is a multi Ethnic Country, lets put all this co governance shit away and how about just for a change
One country one people, let everyone live by the same law.
Sure some will say that certain folk in the population are disadvantaged but hey that happens in every society around the world
are we going to keep throwing money to these folk and saying here we are or are we going to go the tough love way and tell them to knuckle under because they have the same advantages as everyone.
And before all the "Be kind"people start moaning NO this is NOT a racist rant at all, no matter what you think.
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 02-04-2022
maori held full and legal title of this land as defined in english law when the first europeans arrived to settle
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 12:50 PM)Oldfellah Wrote: Shoot me down in flames if you like.Well I think we have arrived at this point in time simply because the "One country one people, let everyone live by the same law", hasn't worked, and we can see that in the stats re health / justice / prison, probably housing outcomes for the less advantaged...
BUT
New Zealand is a multi Ethnic Country, lets put all this co governance shit away and how about just for a change
One country one people, let everyone live by the same law.
Sure some will say that certain folk in the population are disadvantaged but hey that happens in every society around the world
are we going to keep throwing money to these folk and saying here we are or are we going to go the tough love way and tell them to knuckle under because they have the same advantages as everyone.
And before all the "Be kind"people start moaning NO this is NOT a racist rant at all, no matter what you think.
RE: He Pau Pau - Olive - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 12:50 PM)Oldfellah Wrote: Shoot me down in flames if you like.Do you know what colonisation is and does?   If you don't it's time to learn   Here's a start.
BUT
New Zealand is a multi Ethnic Country, lets put all this co governance shit away and how about just for a change
One country one people, let everyone live by the same law.
Sure some will say that certain folk in the population are disadvantaged but hey that happens in every society around the world
are we going to keep throwing money to these folk and saying here we are or are we going to go the tough love way and tell them to knuckle under because they have the same advantages as everyone.
And before all the "Be kind"people start moaning NO this is NOT a racist rant at all, no matter what you think.
 
Colonisation includes:
1.   The acquisition by settlers/colonisers of indigenous land
2.   The introduction of new diseases to a population previously free of them
3.   Direct and violent conflict with the colonisers
I will give you a link to a section of the Encyclopedia of NZ which plainly describes the health effects of colonisation on Maori.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/death-rates-and-life-expectancy/page-4
I hope this helps.
RE: He Pau Pau - Lilith7 - 02-04-2022
I wonder sometimes how our world might look, had our ancestors had just traded fairly, rather than colonising & exploiting. If the better side of human nature had been given free rein, rather than the worst.
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 01:42 PM)Olive Wrote:My ancestors are Welsh and were conquered and subjugated by the English/Anglo-Saxon.  I guess guess I could say I am oppressed too.(02-04-2022, 12:50 PM)Oldfellah Wrote: Shoot me down in flames if you like.Do you know what colonisation is and does?   If you don't it's time to learn   Here's a start.
BUT
New Zealand is a multi Ethnic Country, lets put all this co governance shit away and how about just for a change
One country one people, let everyone live by the same law.
Sure some will say that certain folk in the population are disadvantaged but hey that happens in every society around the world
are we going to keep throwing money to these folk and saying here we are or are we going to go the tough love way and tell them to knuckle under because they have the same advantages as everyone.
And before all the "Be kind"people start moaning NO this is NOT a racist rant at all, no matter what you think.
 
Colonisation includes:
1.   The acquisition by settlers/colonisers of indigenous land
2.   The introduction of new diseases to a population previously free of them
3.   Direct and violent conflict with the colonisers
I will give you a link to a section of the Encyclopedia of NZ which plainly describes the health effects of colonisation on Maori.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/death-rates-and-life-expectancy/page-4
I hope this helps.
(02-04-2022, 02:14 PM)Lilith7 Wrote: I wonder sometimes how our world might look, had our ancestors had  just traded fairly, rather than colonising & exploiting. If the better side of human nature had been given free rein, rather than the worst.I wonder how the country and Maori would look if Cook sailed on by and left it alone?  Certainly it wouldn't be an agrarian utopia like some would have you believe they lived in.
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 02-04-2022
One country one people so long as it is their country their people.
Nah. Too boring.
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 01:09 PM)Magoo Wrote: maori held full and legal title of this land as defined in english law when the first europeans arrived to settleMaori had little understanding of such terms and their land was what they could defend and cultivate.  They didn't consider ownership in the same way.
(02-04-2022, 02:47 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: One country one people so long as it is their country their people.Yes now you are saying what Maori think.   Well done you.
Nah. Too boring.
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 02-04-2022
Every ethnicity in this country has contributed to our culture, our identity, our productivity - in innumerable ways.
The older I get the more contributions I can recognise. And I live a very quiet life...
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 12:41 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: The very fact that you publicly acknowledge you are willing to be dishonest, commit fraud even, in order to benefit from the system suggests that the reason you are so fearful of this change is simply transference. You think everyone is as greedy and self oriented as you are.Hey I could have some blood in there somewhere.  There is no definition if what Maori is.  Why should a person be disadvantaged because of their skin colour or race?  Isn't that by definition racist?
It simply isn't the case.
But I can see how that might make someone a bit racist, along with all the other stuff. Do you hate women too by any chance?
And I love women.     But I know it is easier just to throw out the whole he is a racist thing, or he  must hate women blablabla.
(02-04-2022, 11:39 AM)king1 Wrote:Again easy to throw out the racist thing.   But how can you be racist if you are against a system being set up that actually establishes a health (or any other system) based on skin colour or ancestry?   Once again that is the very definition  of racist.(02-04-2022, 11:21 AM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Read the document you just referenced.  Read is carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand.
I know one thing with the changes they are proposing.  If I get sick or need an opperation and Moari get priority I will be ticking that box to say I am moari.
yeah, nothing to see there unless you're a racist bigot.  Nothing ever seems to have any kernel of truth with you does it? always, twisted, embellished logic...
you should probably go and read the document.  Read it carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand, that it is not anti new zealander, just pro equity for all citizens.  If you can't get that then there is no helping you...
As for pro equity for all - how can you say that with a straight face?
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 02-04-2022
Maori had little understanding?
Oh. That must be why they were so easy to hornswoggle then. Regrettably for hornswogglers, they have caught up these days.
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 02:55 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:It is racist because you are making it about the skin colour or ancestry.(02-04-2022, 11:39 AM)king1 Wrote: yeah, nothing to see there unless you're a racist bigot.  Nothing ever seems to have any kernel of truth with you does it? always, twisted, embellished logic...Again easy to throw out the racist thing.   But how can you be racist if you are against a system being set up that actually establishes a health (or any other system) based on skin colour or ancestry?   Once again that is the very definition  of racist.
you should probably go and read the document.  Read it carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand, that it is not anti new zealander, just pro equity for all citizens.  If you can't get that then there is no helping you...
As for pro equity for all - how can you say that with a straight face?
This is really no different than if we set up a health system focussed on for example cancer patients, or any other significant group...  Cancer patients are simply a metric that is measurable and disadvantaged in health outcomes.  Maori and Polynesian peoples are also a metric that is measurable and (from what I read) disadvantaged in health outcomes. 
They want a voice, as do cancer patients... Because they are a significantly larger group than cancer patients, and presumably because we have a treaty and UN commitments, they get a say so in how the health system should be setup...
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 02-04-2022
Quote:wainuithey didnt have to understand anything.
Maori had little understanding of such terms and their land was what they could defend and cultivate.  They didn't consider ownership in the same way.
the law regarding property rights was entrenched in the magna carta by king john in 1215? (thereabouts)
the english crown and its subjects were bound by that document.
when the british arrived, maori held full, complete and sovereign title to these lands.
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 02-04-2022
Hornswoggling is never okay.
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 03:38 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Hornswoggling is never okay.no, its right up there with bamboozling and carpet bagging
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 03:29 PM)king1 Wrote:Will I as a person of European decent be able to access those areas?  Yes or no?(02-04-2022, 02:55 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Again easy to throw out the racist thing.   But how can you be racist if you are against a system being set up that actually establishes a health (or any other system) based on skin colour or ancestry?   Once again that is the very definition  of racist.It is racist because you are making it about the skin colour or ancestry.
As for pro equity for all - how can you say that with a straight face?
This is really no different than if we set up a health system focussed on for example cancer patients, or any other significant group...  Cancer patients are simply a metric that is measurable and disadvantaged in health outcomes.  Maori and Polynesian peoples are also a metric that is measurable and (from what I read) disadvantaged in health outcomes. 
They want a voice, as do cancer patients... Because they are a significantly larger group than cancer patients, and presumably because we have a treaty and UN commitments, they get a say so in how the health system should be setup...
In the present health system, white, brown, yellow, black, man woman, child, LGTBIQ can all access the system or parts of the system they need.   That is a fair system.  No one is disadvantaged.  The moment you establish a separate system be it health, prisons, justice, education, welfare or government based on the ethnicity of a person then the system is no longer fair and no longer for all.   They tried that somewhere once - the rest of the world didn't like it much.
(02-04-2022, 03:36 PM)Magoo Wrote:Well I guess Maori having an understanding of the Magna Carta and English law is right up there with them using radio, TV and microwaves.Quote:wainuithey didnt have to understand anything.
Maori had little understanding of such terms and their land was what they could defend and cultivate.  They didn't consider ownership in the same way.
the law regarding property rights was entrenched in the magna carta by king john in 1215? (thereabouts)
the english crown and its subjects were bound by that document.
when the british arrived, maori held full, complete and sovereign title to these lands.
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 02-04-2022
Quote:wainui
Well I guess Maori having an understanding of the Magna Carta and English law is right up there with them using radio, TV and microwaves.
damn, youre not too flash are you? it didnt matter what maori thought or knew or understood.
as hosts they were bound by nothing. law as we know it is a construct, its not inherent.
the english were bound by their own laws. and still are, which is why we have to redress the confiscations and thefts carried out by our ancestors.  we are abiding today by laws as we wrote then.
you reckon captain cook had a fucking microwave on the endeavour?
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 02-04-2022
No one is disadvantaged?
You never heard of post code healthcare?
Or, howabout being a young woman with endometriosis? Or a woman who has just given birth for the first time? Or someone with ongoing mental health issues? Or a disabled adult needing assessment and help?
You live in fairyland if you really believe our health system is equitable.