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+--- Thread: He Pau Pau (/showthread.php?tid=1260)
RE: He Pau Pau - Olive - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 05:58 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Google how big the Maori population actually is, and then ponder how much of a threat to the average middle aged white guy they are. Heavens, a bit of shared governance over the important bits of this nation would be good for all of us. Especially considering how much that average white guy has benefited from the theft from and dominance of that tangata whenua population over the decades.Well said Hunni.  I totally ageee.
Talk about dog in the manger...
RE: He Pau Pau - Lilith7 - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 05:58 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Google how big the Maori population actually is, and then ponder how much of a threat to the average middle aged white guy they are. Heavens, a bit of shared governance over the important bits of this nation would be good for all of us. Especially considering how much that average white guy has benefited from the theft from and dominance of that tangata whenua population over the decades.If we move towards that more, then the future may mean a fairer way for all of us - doesn't seem like a bad thing.
Talk about dog in the manger...
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 01-04-2022
behind every old or middle aged white guy
is an old or middle aged while woman
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 05:58 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Google how big the Maori population actually is, and then ponder how much of a threat to the average middle aged white guy they are. Heavens, a bit of shared governance over the important bits of this nation would be good for all of us. Especially considering how much that average white guy has benefited from the theft from and dominance of that tangata whenua population over the decades.Do you believe that 16% of the population should have 50% of the say?  Or in the case of health veto over the other 84%?  
Talk about dog in the manger...
Let's take a look at examples of co-governance already in place namely the running of the Te Urawera NP.  How did that work out?  Even with DOC willing to pay for upkeep it was a failure by any measure.
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 06:52 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:could you point out to me where abouts in that document it says anything about maori authorities having a power of veto of the rest of new zealand.  It just sounds a bit too far fetched...(01-04-2022, 05:58 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Google how big the Maori population actually is, and then ponder how much of a threat to the average middle aged white guy they are. Heavens, a bit of shared governance over the important bits of this nation would be good for all of us. Especially considering how much that average white guy has benefited from the theft from and dominance of that tangata whenua population over the decades.Do you believe that 16% of the population should have 50% of the say?  Or in the case of health veto over the other 84%?  
Talk about dog in the manger...
Let's take a look at examples of co-governance already in place namely the running of the Te Urawera NP.  How did that work out?  Even with DOC willing to pay for upkeep it was a failure by any measure.
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 06:59 PM)king1 Wrote:Check out the details re the health changes.(01-04-2022, 06:52 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Do you believe that 16% of the population should have 50% of the say?  Or in the case of health veto over the other 84%?  could you point out to me where abouts in that document it says anything about maori authorities having a power of veto of the rest of new zealand.  It just sounds a bit too far fetched...
Let's take a look at examples of co-governance already in place namely the running of the Te Urawera NP.  How did that work out?  Even with DOC willing to pay for upkeep it was a failure by any measure.
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 07:26 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:reading the health section I can see several references to(01-04-2022, 06:59 PM)king1 Wrote: could you point out to me where abouts in that document it says anything about maori authorities having a power of veto of the rest of new zealand.  It just sounds a bit too far fetched...Check out the details re the health changes.
Quote:Existence  of  a  national,  Māori-controlled agency, organisation or collective with oversight  and  control  of  Māori  health-related spending and policywhich all seems rather reasonable.  
Nothing about having a power of veto or some such...  I did a page search for the "veto" reference, surprisingly nothing showed up...  So unless you can come with a specific reference, i'm calling it a bogus claim that someone  made up and all the CT sheep copy/paste and feebly advocate.
RE: He Pau Pau - harm_less - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 07:26 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:You seem well informed of the contents of the document. In that case maybe you could provide a quote of the relevant info or at least a link to guide those who are interested to the info you're referring to.(01-04-2022, 06:59 PM)king1 Wrote: could you point out to me where abouts in that document it says anything about maori authorities having a power of veto of the rest of new zealand.  It just sounds a bit too far fetched...Check out the details re the health changes.
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 07:59 PM)harm_less Wrote:I doubt he has even looked at it...(01-04-2022, 07:26 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Check out the details re the health changes.You seem well informed of the contents of the document. In that case maybe you could provide a quote of the relevant info or at least a link to guide those who are interested to the info you're referring to.
RE: He Pau Pau - Oh_hunnihunni - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 06:49 PM)Magoo Wrote: behind every old or middle aged white guyYup. And I am including myself in that generalisation. I am very much middle class white, and old. A boomer in fact. Thing is I have a Maori daughter, and she became an activist. And I got involuntarily educated. So I have a foot in both camps.
is an old or middle aged while woman
It can be an 'interesting' position to be in. But it beats the hell out of being the ignorant woman I was before.
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 08:02 PM)king1 Wrote:I said check out the changes to the health system.  Educate yourself.(01-04-2022, 07:59 PM)harm_less Wrote: You seem well informed of the contents of the document. In that case maybe you could provide a quote of the relevant info or at least a link to guide those who are interested to the info you're referring to.I doubt he has even looked at it...
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 01-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 08:26 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: please provide a link or reference to substantiate the claim, as I mentioned I can't find any reference to it?(01-04-2022, 08:02 PM)king1 Wrote: I doubt he has even looked at it...I said check out the changes to the health system.  Educate yourself.
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 02-04-2022
(01-04-2022, 08:42 PM)king1 Wrote:I didn't say in that document.   I said in the health system changes.  (01-04-2022, 08:26 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: I said check out the changes to the health system.  Educate yourself. please provide a link or reference to substantiate the claim, as I mentioned I can't find any reference to it?
It MIGHT get watered down before  it is made law.  But Maori would have veto over the health system in its current form..
RE: He Pau Pau - Magoo - 02-04-2022
i beg your pardon?
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 06:51 AM)Wainuiguy Wrote:like everything you say, incredibly vague and evasive and completely unhelpful...(01-04-2022, 08:42 PM)king1 Wrote:  please provide a link or reference to substantiate the claim, as I mentioned I can't find any reference to it?I didn't say in that document.   I said in the health system changes.  
It MIGHT get watered down before  it is made law.  But Maori would have veto over the health system in its current form..
anyway, found the document you weren't referring to 
Quote:52 Similarly, turning to national service planning, in relation to hauora Māori it will also be critical that there is clear and meaningful Māori leadership and involvement. My expectation is that the Māori Health Authority should have a co-lead role in relation to national planning and in designing the key operating mechanisms that the system will use. This would require the Māori Health Authority to jointly agree national plans and operational frameworks(e.g. the commissioning framework), with clear approval rights including an ability to exercise a veto in sign-off.  Having such an approval mandate would ensure the Māori Health Authority is engaged early and constructively, and that critical operations are aligned with a clearhauora Māori vision, embed Māori priorities and mātauranga Māori systems, and enable mechanisms that give life to local Māori leadership in the health system
https://dpmc.govt.nz/publications/cabinet-decision-cab-21-sub-0092-health-and-disability-system-review-proposals-reform
Now as I read this it refers to 
- designing the key operating mechanisms
- jointly agree national plans and operational frameworks
and I fail to see how that can be a bad thing?  It's not like the Maori health authority will have day to day power of veto over the health of all New Zealanders - which is what all the fear mongering seems to be suggesting...
Am I wrong?
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 02-04-2022
and as an aside, as I see it this is a classic example of CT nutter ideas, by not reading shit properly, taking shit out of context, and spewing out, the out of context shit, as 'facts'
The power of Veto is not related to He PuaPua as claimed in the OP but from a completely separate source...
The power of Veto is not 'over the entire health system' as claimed in the OP but only over the Design/Build phase...
Out of context
Overstated the reach
Exaggerated the impact
RE: He Pau Pau - Wainuiguy - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 09:25 AM)king1 Wrote: and as an aside, as I see it this is a classic example of CT nutter ideas, by not reading shit properly, taking shit out of context, and spewing out, the out of context shit, as 'facts'Read the document you just referenced.  Read is carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand.
The power of Veto is not related to He PuaPua as claimed in the OP but from a completely separate source...
The power of Veto is not 'over the entire health system' as claimed in the OP but only over the Design/Build phase...
Out of context
Overstated the reach
Exaggerated the impact
I know one thing with the changes they are proposing. If I get sick or need an opperation and Moari get priority I will be ticking that box to say I am moari.
RE: He Pau Pau - Olive - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 09:25 AM)king1 Wrote: and as an aside, as I see it this is a classic example of CT nutter ideas, by not reading shit properly, taking shit out of context, and spewing out, the out of context shit, as 'facts'Indeed.   There's an interesting piece in Stuff today about co-governance, with particular reference to the Waikato River Authority, which has been a success.
The power of Veto is not related to He PuaPua as claimed in the OP but from a completely separate source...
The power of Veto is not 'over the entire health system' as claimed in the OP but only over the Design/Build phase...
Out of context
Overstated the reach
Exaggerated the impact
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300555804/how-cogovernance-is-already-working
RE: He Pau Pau - king1 - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 11:21 AM)Wainuiguy Wrote:(02-04-2022, 09:25 AM)king1 Wrote: and as an aside, as I see it this is a classic example of CT nutter ideas, by not reading shit properly, taking shit out of context, and spewing out, the out of context shit, as 'facts'Read the document you just referenced.  Read is carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand.
The power of Veto is not related to He PuaPua as claimed in the OP but from a completely separate source...
The power of Veto is not 'over the entire health system' as claimed in the OP but only over the Design/Build phase...
Out of context
Overstated the reach
Exaggerated the impact
I know one thing with the changes they are proposing.  If I get sick or need an opperation and Moari get priority I will be ticking that box to say I am moari.
yeah, nothing to see there unless you're a racist bigot.  Nothing ever seems to have any kernel of truth with you does it? always, twisted, embellished logic...
you should probably go and read the document.  Read it carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand, that it is not anti new zealander, just pro equity for all citizens.  If you can't get that then there is no helping you...
RE: He Pau Pau - Lilith7 - 02-04-2022
(02-04-2022, 11:21 AM)Wainuiguy Wrote:Well, you could. But unless you can learn to spell it properly first, I don't really think they're going to believe you....(02-04-2022, 09:25 AM)king1 Wrote: and as an aside, as I see it this is a classic example of CT nutter ideas, by not reading shit properly, taking shit out of context, and spewing out, the out of context shit, as 'facts'Read the document you just referenced.  Read is carefully and slowly.  Then read it again and then you may understand.
The power of Veto is not related to He PuaPua as claimed in the OP but from a completely separate source...
The power of Veto is not 'over the entire health system' as claimed in the OP but only over the Design/Build phase...
Out of context
Overstated the reach
Exaggerated the impact
I know one thing with the changes they are proposing.  If I get sick or need an opperation and Moari get priority I will be ticking that box to say I am moari.
