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+--- Thread: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability (/showthread.php?tid=1100)
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Magoo - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 06:33 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:could it be said its gotten worse?(05-02-2022, 06:18 PM)king1 Wrote: and more backtracking...  you should use a disclaimer, something like "nothing I say should be construed as factual, likely to switch to alternate facts at any time"Point out where I said it was them alone?  They have however caused the increases for the last 5 years.  That is on them.
because it has
so really its a double fail
failed to build more houses, as they promised. campaigned on it.
failed to stop the spiralling prices and rents. as they promised.
they took us backwards in these areas. hard to cut it any other way.
yes national left an inflated market, but nothing like we see today. 
its fucked our next generation.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 06:40 PM)Magoo Wrote:For God's sake man stop talking sense.(05-02-2022, 06:33 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Point out where I said it was them alone?  They have however caused the increases for the last 5 years.  That is on them.could it be said its gotten worse?
because it has
so really its a double fail
failed to build more houses, as they promised. campaigned on it.
failed to stop the spiralling prices and rents. as they promised.
they took us backwards in these areas. hard to cut it any other way.
yes national left an inflated market, but nothing like we see today. 
its fucked our next generation.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - king1 - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 06:33 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:(05-02-2022, 06:18 PM)king1 Wrote: and more backtracking...  you should use a disclaimer, something like "nothing I say should be construed as factual, likely to switch to alternate facts at any time"Point out where I said it was them alone?  They have however caused the increases for the last 5 years.  That is on them.
In post 3 you referred to
Quote:I don't understand how they haven't realised that policies they implemented have created the issue in the first place.or are we playing the semantics card now, try to convince us you weren't referring to labour alone...
some of their policies have had an impact as I have said before, but those were for the greater good eg healthy homes etc.  
The real problem is basic economics of supply and demand.  It was always going to happen, they were probably a bit naive thinking they could fix the problem with the stroke of a pen. If they are guilty of anything it is for campaigning on an issue saying they could fix it, which imho no one could given the constraints.  
Only solution is build more houses and that takes time -  but they are being built and will continue to in greater numbers, thanks to Labour removing all the red tape in the RMA.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - king1 - 05-02-2022
on a positive note NZ population growth is down at the moment so that should ease some of the demand side pressures for a while, unless they do something silly like reopen the borders...
https://berl.co.nz/economic-insights/migration-and-population/lack-international-migration-brings-nz-population-growth
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 07:09 PM)king1 Wrote:Yes their policies implemented in the last 5 years caused a massive spike in rents. (05-02-2022, 06:33 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Point out where I said it was them alone?  They have however caused the increases for the last 5 years.  That is on them.
In post 3 you referred to
Quote:I don't understand how they haven't realised that policies they implemented have created the issue in the first place.or are we playing the semantics card now, try to convince us you weren't referring to labour alone...
some of their policies have had an impact as I have said before, but those were for the greater good eg healthy homes etc.  
The real problem is basic economics of supply and demand.  It was always going to happen, they were probably a bit naive thinking they could fix the problem with the stroke of a pen. If they are guilty of anything it is for campaigning on an issue saying they could fix it, which imho no one could given the constraints.  
Only solution is build more houses and that takes time -  but they are being built and will continue to in greater numbers, thanks to Labour removing all the red tape in the RMA.
They could have helped National fix the RMA 7 YEARS AGO.  But they preferred petty politics to actually getting things done.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - king1 - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 07:22 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:I don't really agree with you, as far as i'm concerned it was always going to happen to some extent, regardless of who was in power.  But such is life...(05-02-2022, 07:09 PM)king1 Wrote: In post 3 you referred toYes their policies implemented in the last 5 years caused a massive spike in rents. 
or are we playing the semantics card now, try to convince us you weren't referring to labour alone...
some of their policies have had an impact as I have said before, but those were for the greater good eg healthy homes etc.  
The real problem is basic economics of supply and demand.  It was always going to happen, they were probably a bit naive thinking they could fix the problem with the stroke of a pen. If they are guilty of anything it is for campaigning on an issue saying they could fix it, which imho no one could given the constraints.  
Only solution is build more houses and that takes time -  but they are being built and will continue to in greater numbers, thanks to Labour removing all the red tape in the RMA.
They could have helped National fix the RMA 7 YEARS AGO.  But they preferred petty politics to actually getting things done.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 07:55 PM)king1 Wrote:Boy you give up fast.  Come on where is the policies they have put up to reduce rents?  And don't throw out the temporary freeze in 2020 because that was temporary and they were warned increases would occur after it was lifted.(05-02-2022, 07:22 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Yes their policies implemented in the last 5 years caused a massive spike in rents. I don't really agree with you, as far as i'm concerned it was always going to happen to some extent, regardless of who was in power.  But such is life...
They could have helped National fix the RMA 7 YEARS AGO.  But they preferred petty politics to actually getting things done.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - king1 - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 08:09 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:I don't believe I have actually been advocating that they have specific policies to reduce rents, I mentioned a couple in response to your questions but tbh I don't really care if they do or not... (05-02-2022, 07:55 PM)king1 Wrote: I don't really agree with you, as far as i'm concerned it was always going to happen to some extent, regardless of who was in power.  But such is life...Boy you give up fast.  Come on where is the policies they have put up to reduce rents?  And don't throw out the temporary freeze in 2020 because that was temporary and they were warned increases would occur after it was lifted.
My only interest in this topic was and still is that this was a problem in the making for a long time, by inaction of successive governments and not as you stated in post #3, a problem created by Labour.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 08:34 PM)king1 Wrote:So you admit they have no policies that decrease rents.(05-02-2022, 08:09 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Boy you give up fast.  Come on where is the policies they have put up to reduce rents?  And don't throw out the temporary freeze in 2020 because that was temporary and they were warned increases would occur after it was lifted.I don't believe I have actually been advocating that they have specific policies to reduce rents, I mentioned a couple in response to your questions but tbh I don't really care if they do or not... 
My only interest in this topic was and still is that this was a problem in the making for a long time, by inaction of successive governments and not as you stated in post #3, a problem created by Labour.
Certainly their policies increased them.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - king1 - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 08:50 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote:(05-02-2022, 08:34 PM)king1 Wrote: I don't believe I have actually been advocating that they have specific policies to reduce rents, I mentioned a couple in response to your questions but tbh I don't really care if they do or not... So you admit they have no policies that decrease rents.
My only interest in this topic was and still is that this was a problem in the making for a long time, by inaction of successive governments and not as you stated in post #3, a problem created by Labour.
Certainly their policies increased them.
ummm, not sure I admitted to that at all, but this might help you find the answers you seek...
https://www.labour.org.nz/housing
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - yousnoozeyoulose - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 08:50 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: So you admit they have no policies that decrease rents.
Just quietly, we're still waiting for you to explain how Labour caused all this mess. All you've done is deflect by using some curious anti-logic approach which probably explains why everyone has got bored with you today.
For those playing at home, you've used least two fallacies: the good ol' strawman and an appeal to ignorance. Impressive work.
Maybe your next fishing trip will go better
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 06-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 09:18 PM)yousnoozeyoulose Wrote:All the policies they have implemented in the last 5 years around housing have forced rents up.(05-02-2022, 08:50 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: So you admit they have no policies that decrease rents.
Just quietly, we're still waiting for you to explain how Labour caused all this mess. All you've done is deflect by using some curious anti-logic approach which probably explains why everyone has got bored with you today.
For those playing at home, you've used least two fallacies: the good ol' strawman and an appeal to ignorance. Impressive work.
Maybe your next fishing trip will go better
Removal of interest deductions 
Healthly homes initiatives - good idea but it was always going to end with Tennants paying more
Removal of depreciation on rentals
Introduction of a CGT aka extension of the brightline rule
Just some of what they did to add compliance costs to landlords.  Those cost were always going to be paid by tenants- they were warned of this by multiple sources including IRD and Treasury but pushed ahead anyway.
(05-02-2022, 09:07 PM)king1 Wrote:Nope most of that just confirms their ineptitude.(05-02-2022, 08:50 PM)Wainuiguy Wrote: So you admit they have no policies that decrease rents.
Certainly their policies increased them.
ummm, not sure I admitted to that at all, but this might help you find the answers you seek...
https://www.labour.org.nz/housing
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - king1 - 06-02-2022
Ok my last word on the matter - although some of those policies you mentioned may have contributed to a landlords costs, that is only half a miniscule influence compared to the real problem...
Not enough houses equals shortage of supply
Shortage of supply tends to push up prices given the same amount of demand
In New Zealand we also had an ever increasing demand due to population growth over 30/40 years
So supply is restricted, demand is increasing, price goes up, lots...
If there was an oversupply, landlords would be forced to lower their rents because there would be too many houses available and they will sit empty - too much choice for tenants. 
The only effect of increasing landlord's costs (all those policies you mention) is the landlord needs to decide whether they can still  make the numbers add up and hopefully make a profit.  It has very little influence on what rate they can rent their property in the market, that is set by the market itself... 
It is basic supply and demand problem.  Read up, it explains a lot about the way markets work
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp
You can blame labour policies for it all you like but they were only tinkering around the edges.  
The bigger crime is National denying there was a housing crisis for a full nine years
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 06-02-2022
(06-02-2022, 10:21 AM)king1 Wrote: Ok my last word on the matter - although some of those policies you mentioned may have contributed to a landlords costs, that is only half a miniscule influence compared to the real problem...Hahahahaha your last words are But, but, but, National!  
Not enough houses equals shortage of supply
Shortage of supply tends to push up prices given the same amount of demand
In New Zealand we also had an ever increasing demand due to population growth over 30/40 years
So supply is restricted, demand is increasing, price goes up, lots...
If there was an oversupply, landlords would be forced to lower their rents because there would be too many houses available and they will sit empty - too much choice for tenants. 
The only effect of increasing landlord's costs (all those policies you mention) is the landlord needs to decide whether they can still  make the numbers add up and hopefully make a profit.  It has very little influence on what rate they can rent their property in the market, that is set by the market itself... 
It is basic supply and demand problem.  Read up, it explains a lot about the way markets work
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp
You can blame labour policies for it all you like but they were only tinkering around the edges.  
The bigger crime is National denying there was a housing crisis for a full nine years
But yes you and right supply is the issue.  Where was Labour when National wanted to amend the RMA?  As said previously  and you failed to address then, these changes are very similar to the ones Labour want to introduce now but that would have occured 7 years ago.  Too stupid playing petty politics to help solve try and solve the issue.
And many landlords couldn't make the numbers work so sold their rentals.  Creating further stress on the rental market.
Of course you won't rebut this because you had for final words.  But, but, but National!  The cry of the loser left.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Lilith7 - 06-02-2022
(06-02-2022, 11:06 AM)Wainuiguy Wrote:(06-02-2022, 10:21 AM)king1 Wrote: Ok my last word on the matter - although some of those policies you mentioned may have contributed to a landlords costs, that is only half a miniscule influence compared to the real problem...Hahahahaha your last words are But, but, but, National!  
Not enough houses equals shortage of supply
Shortage of supply tends to push up prices given the same amount of demand
In New Zealand we also had an ever increasing demand due to population growth over 30/40 years
So supply is restricted, demand is increasing, price goes up, lots...
If there was an oversupply, landlords would be forced to lower their rents because there would be too many houses available and they will sit empty - too much choice for tenants. 
The only effect of increasing landlord's costs (all those policies you mention) is the landlord needs to decide whether they can still  make the numbers add up and hopefully make a profit.  It has very little influence on what rate they can rent their property in the market, that is set by the market itself... 
It is basic supply and demand problem.  Read up, it explains a lot about the way markets work
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp
You can blame labour policies for it all you like but they were only tinkering around the edges.  
The bigger crime is National denying there was a housing crisis for a full nine years
But yes you and right supply is the issue.  Where was Labour when National wanted to amend the RMA?  As said previously  and you failed to address then, these changes are very similar to the ones Labour want to introduce now but that would have occured 7 years ago.  Too stupid playing petty politics to help solve try and solve the issue.
And many landlords couldn't make the numbers work so sold their rentals.  Creating further stress on the rental market.
Of course you won't rebut this because you had for final words.  But, but, but National!  The cry of the loser left.
You've yet to explain just how Labour is solely responsible for the present housing situation. 
Hardly surprising, since as has been said by several posters now, both Labour & National are responsible due to their policies over the last few decades. Both parties  embraced Neo liberalism, as has happened in some other western countries.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Magoo - 06-02-2022
yes both parties contributed to it.
i dont think national campaigned on it.
its not just that it, got worse under labour
its that they did nothing. (ok your house might have a heater now, unless you live in your car and already had one.)
they didnt try anything. didnt build a house, didnt introduce any strategy, despite the working groups millions spent.
did fuck all.
so while both parties are guilty of contributing to it, labour have been vandals by neglect to our real estate market.
you only have to look to the governance of that ministry in the last six years to see where the problem lies
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 06-02-2022
(06-02-2022, 01:53 PM)Lilith7 Wrote:And once again, for the weak of understanding, please point out where I said they are solely responsible? (06-02-2022, 11:06 AM)Wainuiguy Wrote: Hahahahaha your last words are But, but, but, National!  
But yes you and right supply is the issue.  Where was Labour when National wanted to amend the RMA?  As said previously  and you failed to address then, these changes are very similar to the ones Labour want to introduce now but that would have occured 7 years ago.  Too stupid playing petty politics to help solve try and solve the issue.
And many landlords couldn't make the numbers work so sold their rentals.  Creating further stress on the rental market.
Of course you won't rebut this because you had for final words.  But, but, but National!  The cry of the loser left.
You've yet to explain just how Labour is solely responsible for the present housing situation. 
Hardly surprising, since as has been said by several posters now, both Labour & National are responsible due to their policies over the last few decades. Both parties  embraced Neo liberalism, as has happened in some other western countries.
They aren't however they ARE RESPONSIBLE for what has occurred in the last 5 years.  They campaigned on houses for all, lower rents and better houses for tennants.  I guess 1 of 3 is OK?
The key from the original clip John Campbell asking the Deputy Minister to say if they were in opposition now what would they be saying?  Going to do my best Lee Child impression:
Williams said nothing.
(05-02-2022, 06:31 PM)king1 Wrote:So what I see is private enterprise getting on and doing something this government couldn't do - build houses.(05-02-2022, 05:41 PM)Magoo Wrote: ohhunni;it's a work in progress but it's happening
"The biggest building programme in modern history."
where dat?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/nz-housing-consent-records-broken-nearing-50000-mark-stats-nz/K3AFAYQ52AQL32N43M6W4KVKXA/
Of course bit of a difference between consent and a house actually being built.
Just to throw into the mix - the last 2 Labour Goverments have overseen both the largest increases in house values and rents withe this government overseeing record increases in both.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Oh_hunnihunni - 06-02-2022
Fact - this government has built more housing than any previous government in modern history.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2020/427216/labour-promised-big-on-housing-has-it-delivered
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/we-call-it-home/the-state-steps-in-and-out
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/explainer-is-labour-fudging-state-house-numbers.html
I do not see how one government can be expected to overcome the deliberate running down of state housing stock by the previous National governments in a mere two terms.
Maybe DP can explain how that could be done. In the middle of a world wide pandemic.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Magoo - 06-02-2022
im fart oo busy to read all that
and im spectacle of the claim.
then i read it again
more than any in 'modern' history
when does modern start?
or should it read 'try to build most in modern history'
on its own your claim is misleading.
RE: John Campbell slams Poto Williams for lack of progress on home affordability - Wainuiguy - 06-02-2022
(06-02-2022, 03:24 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Fact - this government has built more housing than any previous government in modern history.None of those stories actually support your claim, in fact some refute it.  The pandemic started 2 years ago - labour have been in power for 5 years.  Putting money into a large scale building of houses in the last 2 years would have been great.  Instead they have squandered billions on things that produce nothing.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2020/427216/labour-promised-big-on-housing-has-it-delivered
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/we-call-it-home/the-state-steps-in-and-out
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/explainer-is-labour-fudging-state-house-numbers.html
I do not see how one government can be expected to overcome the deliberate running down of state housing stock by the previous National governments in a mere two terms.
Maybe DP can explain how that could be done. In the middle of a world wide pandemic.
So your claim of the largest house building project in history is utter BS.